Grenadier

Siia109

Well-known member
Color me ignorant - but I can never understand powder coating any part of the undercarriage or much else if its not a show car / trailer queen.

The amount of rust I have found under powder coating from the 3rd light bracket on NAS D-90's to bumpers, bull bars and miscellaneous brackets I would never want to put it on complicated shapes (i.e. frame/chassis or running gear) that is exposed to road rash, off road scrapes and salt. Sure it looks great when its all fresh out of the box and for the photo shoot (as long as that's all you want to do with it) but the durability is just not there for someone who simply drives at highway speed, let along goes off road.

It seems to me with all the coatings they are looking to do on this (3 by my count) - why not just hot dip the frame and be done with it. You get the inside, outside and all the little crevasses that a chassis presents. Doesn't scrap off easily and if rust starts to take hold you see it - as opposed to powder coating that hides it until the metal swells and if you need to repair it you can.
 

erover82

Well-known member
Color me ignorant - but I can never understand powder coating any part of the undercarriage or much else if its not a show car / trailer queen.

The amount of rust I have found under powder coating from the 3rd light bracket on NAS D-90's to bumpers, bull bars and miscellaneous brackets I would never want to put it on complicated shapes (i.e. frame/chassis or running gear) that is exposed to road rash, off road scrapes and salt. Sure it looks great when its all fresh out of the box and for the photo shoot (as long as that's all you want to do with it) but the durability is just not there for someone who simply drives at highway speed, let along goes off road.

It seems to me with all the coatings they are looking to do on this (3 by my count) - why not just hot dip the frame and be done with it. You get the inside, outside and all the little crevasses that a chassis presents. Doesn't scrap off easily and if rust starts to take hold you see it - as opposed to powder coating that hides it until the metal swells and if you need to repair it you can.

The first coating is E-coat, aka EDP, or electrophoretic coating. It uses electrical current to apply an even layer of a durable coating inside and out of a chassis or other part. This is an extremely common process and much better than the outside-only thermal-cured alkyd coating on a classic Defender chassis. However it sounds like they're going beyond this with an additional coating of some type on the outside and wax on the inside. This is yet another level of improvement over the classic Defender. I suspect the guy is using the term "powder coat" loosely and isn't familiar with what OEM grade process is actually being used. It is likely different to the process found at your local mom and pop powder coat shop. I'd guess the strategy being applied here is to seal the metal with EDP, and protect it from debris abrasion with whatever the second coating is.
 
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jymmiejamz

Founding Member
Callsign: KN4JHI
Color me ignorant - but I can never understand powder coating any part of the undercarriage or much else if its not a show car / trailer queen.

The amount of rust I have found under powder coating from the 3rd light bracket on NAS D-90's to bumpers, bull bars and miscellaneous brackets I would never want to put it on complicated shapes (i.e. frame/chassis or running gear) that is exposed to road rash, off road scrapes and salt. Sure it looks great when its all fresh out of the box and for the photo shoot (as long as that's all you want to do with it) but the durability is just not there for someone who simply drives at highway speed, let along goes off road.

It seems to me with all the coatings they are looking to do on this (3 by my count) - why not just hot dip the frame and be done with it. You get the inside, outside and all the little crevasses that a chassis presents. Doesn't scrap off easily and if rust starts to take hold you see it - as opposed to powder coating that hides it until the metal swells and if you need to repair it you can.
Flaking powder coating is a result of improper prep before powder coating. For new part manufacturing they usually just apply the coating to the new clean metal. That isn’t enough. The metal needs to have a rough surface to properly adhere. When I take my powder coater brand new metal pieces, they get sand blasted first.

I took my Brown Church brush bar to him, which had just started to flake, and he showed me the shiny clean metal right where it was coming off in sheets.
 

Siia109

Well-known member
Flaking powder coating is a result of improper prep before powder coating. For new part manufacturing they usually just apply the coating to the new clean metal. That isn’t enough. The metal needs to have a rough surface to properly adhere. When I take my powder coater brand new metal pieces, they get sand blasted first.

I took my Brown Church brush bar to him, which had just started to flake, and he showed me the shiny clean metal right where it was coming off in sheets.
Agreed - like most everything "prep is king". This process for the new Grenadier doesn't sound like it has thickness to it as much as its a surface adhesion coating.

I have not seen flaking powder coating due to adhesion as much as I have seen the powder coating getting compromised with a chip or scrap and water works its way in then sits under the coating - then slowly "wicks" its way further and further under the coating. It gets in and just sits there working its "destructive magic".

I have found that no mater what we do - water is going to get in. So once I swallowed that pill I treat it (out of respect for Earth day today I don't want to say what kind of petroleum concoction I brew up!) and make things to allow for the water to get out - because if water can get in and out so can air - and that air flow is going to help more than a month of my Saturdays on my back!
 

TJS

Well-known member
The preliminary process Ineos will be using is called KTL or cathodic dip coating or cataphoretic electro-coating. They don't specify on the web site. Here's a couple of brief descriptions...


 

TJS

Well-known member
I am completely comfortable with the process Ineos state they are using on the Grenadier frames. With that said, I kinda want them to galvanize the frames as, should I purchase, I don’t intend to do much in the way of frame alteration over the life of the vehicle - at least not if I don’t have to. Accidents, powertrain modifications, legislative requirements, etc. may alter that at any time.

I chose powdercoating for the restoration of an old Toyota 25 years ago and have not been disappointed. The vehicle has been driven year round in both the Pacific Northwest and in the Rocky Mountains where it was subject to a fair bit of road de-icer (not on the level seen in the Midwest or East). The total mileage driven since restoration is also far less than what the average driver racks up each year due to the low gearing and lack of modern vehicle safety equipment so that should be taken into account. While I do not “rock crawl” the vehicle which, by the way, will rip through any coating and straight down to bare metal in an instant, I do have thousand of miles of gravel road at speed. When driving those stretches it sounds like a xylophone in the cab as the rocks thrown up by the lugged tires skitter and bang off the frame channels and crossmembers. I have seen no significant rock chips or loss of adhesion to the coating or evidence of rust. Believe me, after the tremendous number of hours I put into the restoration, I am fanatic about getting a jump on any issues before they become problems. Highway miles mostly take their toll on forward facing exterior components like bull bars, mirrors, grills, and the like.

The process I used on the Toyota went like this - First the frame was pressure washed and sand blasted with instruction given to the sandblaster to pay special attention to the inside of the frame components. This was followed by an acid bath to completely degrease the metal. After that a heavy layer of a zinc-rich powdercoat primer was applied and then a double coat of the toughest black pc the shop had. One of their big clients was a parrot cage manufacturer which required the applied powder to be able to withstand the jaws of Macaw parrots which they told me was easily 300psi and could go up to several thousand psi. They claimed that the powdercoat held up for years. I then sprayed typical rubberized undercoating on the outside lateral and inferior (underside) face of the frame rails and the front crossmember. This is where the majority of road debris is aimed. Finally, I cavity waxed the inside of any channels and into every seam. I also coated every bolt and nut with wax upon initial assembly but have switched to heavy grease for any fasteners used to secure commonly removed items like skid plates, etc. I hose out the frame rails every couple of years and have added a bit of aerosol wax on several occasions. So far so good.

At the time I had the option of going galvy on my vehicle’s frame as there was a large galvanizing plant within ten miles of my residence. I still chose powdercoating. There are a number of issues with galvanizing and also some with PC.

The zinc/galvanizing bath was kept at 800ºF+ and a representative from the local plant admitted that they had seen "some" distortion in sand-blasted Land Rover frames after the process. At the time I didn’t know how much thinner the older LR frames were compared to my Toyota if at all. I didn’t want to risk it.

My frame was also riveted together from interlocking “C” channels and I was concerned with webbing over small gaps or seams which the plant representative also admitted was an issue they had seen. He also admitted to the difficulty in completely covering the inside of boxed frames as trapped or entrained air could prevent the coating from completely adhering in hard to reach places. Again, he mentioned boxed LR frames. There can also be an issue with PC in hard to reach places so that should be taken into account. In the end the rep still felt galvanizing was better than powder coating.

Working on a galvanized frame is hazardous. Welding or alteration with heat can create some pretty nasty gasses. Because of the material thickness you may need to heat and re-tap many threaded connections after coating. I had to do this with a lot of the weld nuts on my frame but the process was quick and painless. Sawing and grinding on galvanized components also requires respiratory protection. Not so much on powdercoated metals but better safe than sorry.

As an afterthought... a good set of mud flaps work wonders despite being vulnerable off highway. Sorry for being long-winded.
 
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WreckITFrank

Technical Excellence Contributor
long post, but a copy from email that im sure many have recieved.

We’re making great progress. 2022 is the launch year for European and Rest of World markets and the Grenadier will soon be rolling off the production line. As was always planned, the North American markets will have to wait until 2023 for customer deliveries. We know it’s been a while since you reserved your place in the line, so thank you for bearing with us. We’re very grateful for your support and hope you’ve enjoyed following our journey so far.

Your commitment to what we’re doing with the Grenadier continues to inspire us as we push on to deliver your no-nonsense off-roader. We’re seeing great demand around the world with reservations already at 15,000 and counting. Here’s what’s happening next...

MAY 2022 - FULL VEHICLE TECH SPECS & CAR CONFIGURATOR LIVE

From May you’ll receive access to the full vehicle specifications, trim packs, options and accessories. Everything you need to make your choice in building and visualising your Grenadier, in our online configurator. Please note, though, that these specs will be for the markets launching this year – and will be subject to change for North American markets come 2023.

LATE 2022 – TIME TO CONFIRM YOUR GRENADIER SPECIFICATION

Later this year, we’ll be announcing final pricing for North America and our order books will open, allowing you to firm up the build slot you previously reserved into a full specification vehicle order. To confirm that order, we’ll be asking for a second down payment. We would stress that – as with the reservation fee of USD 450 – this sum remains fully refundable, and you’ll still be able to make changes to your specification, until closer to your production date. At this point, we will, of course, need you to sign a sales contract as we lock your Grenadier specification into the production schedule.

CONFIGURING YOUR GRENADIER

Before order books open you’ll be able to access our full configurator, which will go live in May 2022, to start thinking about how you want your Grenadier to look and work. Either fleshing out your original saved configuration or starting afresh. Again, please bear in mind that some specification details may change for the North American markets.
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NOW, TO ANSWER SOME OF YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTIONS:

How do I sign the vehicle contract?

You will sign your vehicle contract with your local retailer. Once our retail network is announced, you will have the opportunity to select which retailer you prefer and then they will get in contact with you to finalise details.

What if I want to drive one before I buy?

We recognize that getting behind the wheel is a critical part of the decision-making process, so we aim to make the opportunity of dynamic drives – through our own events but also with dealer demonstrators – available to you well before you have to make your final decision.

Can I change my configuration after ordering?

Yes. Sometime after placing your order we’ll ask you to choose which INEOS Automotive dealer you’d like to take delivery from – we’ll send you regular communications about this and a full list of dealers to choose from when this becomes available. You can make changes to your order right up until your order’s production freeze date. Our customer service centre – and your selected dealer – will be on hand to help get it sorted.

I seem to be missing out on emails other people are getting?

We had some early issues with email permission settings which meant that some of you weren’t receiving all our communications. We’ve fixed this now, but if you were affected, we apologize sincerely.

We’ll be in touch again with more details, including when and where you’ll be able to drive the Grenadier and where we expect our retail locations to be. So look out for more updates soon.

Welcome to the next step on your Grenadier ownership journey. Thank you for your patience!

All the best,

The Grenadier Team
 

RBBailey

NAS-ROW Addict
Callsign: KF7KFZ

Compare that price to the price of a BMW in the UK vs. USA, and you might have a good guess for what it will be in the USA…. Maybe?
 

blueboy

Well-known member
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