Grenadier

[CDN38]

Continuing with the odd differential lock protocol, this review states that the Trialmaster version will be standard spec for U.S. purchasers...

2024 Ineos Grenadier First Drive Review: Overlanding the Newest 4x4 SUV

We put the new off-road SUV through its paces in the tricky terrain of the Scottish Highlands.

www.motortrend.com

methinks Ineos may have waited too long to release the vehicle in North America.

Unfortunately for them it takes 2 years to get through all the North American red tape, in Europe it's 1 year. This is what the Grenadier rep had related to me when I asked why we were still a year+ out.

 

[Eliot]

Unfortunately for them it takes 2 years to get through all the North American red tape, in Europe it's 1 year. This is what the Grenadier rep had related to me when I asked why we were still a year+ out.

I wonder if you can disable or strip some of these features out.

 

[RBBailey]

I'm missing the problem with factory locking diffs. Did something come up about this?

 

[TJS]

I would thank our Fed govt for the extraneous "safety" features more than Ineos.
Any new vehicle sold here is going to have loads of digitalized non-necessities. The Gren will have fewer than most/all of their competitors.

Still true. It's why I haven't completely abandoned the idea of purchasing one.

I know my previous post makes me sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist and nothing is certain in the claims I cited. Plus @CDN38's "2 year"comment sheds some light on the timeline questions. Still there is that nagging feeling that I'm in negotiations with a determined real estate agent. You know the kind. They come in with a full price offer then subtly drag their feet and, after all the competition has drifted away, begin to slowly chip away at you. "How 'bout throwing in such-and such?". "My client really wants the old weather-beaten picnic table in the side yard". "We'd like new carpet in the master.". In the end you're tempted to give in just to get the deal over and be done with them. If you're not careful you'll think "How'd it end up being my turn in the barrel?".

The USA market is the Holy Grail for foreign manufacturers. Volume leads to profitability, and nobody but nobody consumes mass quantities of product like America. Like the Stones song goes, "American girls want everything in the world you could possibly imagine."
Ineos' plan depends on success in the U.S. I don't see how they can survive without it. Heck, if they manage to stay around for awhile, who knows, they may produce a special edition "Utilitymaster" Utility vehicle. There are people who would pay more for less in this case, and I'm one of them.

If the design of the Grenadier was such that it could rebuilt like a Defender - i.e. from the ground up after an accident or rollover - then sales in the developing world would be much more important. As it is they're really delivering something more akin to a Toyota 70 series which was never available in NA other than in Canada for a few short years back in the 1980s (iirc) and only as a short wheelbase version.

Utilitymaster = Poverty Spec?

 

[TJS]

I wonder if you can disable or strip some of these features out.

I doubt it for the average mechanically-inclined user. With literally everything but the steering, seat adjustment, and transfer case shifting run through the main PCM/ECM I'd expect limp mode to rear it's head fairly quickly if you started cutting wires.

 

[TJS]

I'm missing the problem with factory locking diffs. Did something come up about this?

They are an Eaton product or mostly so and must be ordered as a pair. There are functional issues such as unlocking and re-locking when changing from forward motion to reverse. There's also the problem of fully locked diffs acting as a spool. Fine for short, heavy work or where there's room for error but not a lot of fun on, say, narrow snow-covered off camber roads and trails.

Then there's also the engagement protocol. No lockers can be activated until the transfer case is locked (probably smart to circumvent inexperienced operator error here and avoid toasting the center diff by switching on a locker before locking the center) and the front can only be engaged after the rear and must be disengaged in reverse order.

That means anyone who prefers other options will have to wait for the aftermarket which is a real risk. If I could order the OEM front locker only I would have less complaint. I consider that to be a "get out of jail" card when run in standard rotation front diffs as all the strength is in reverse. True that the cost of just the lockers (if still offered independently of the Rough Pack) is pretty reasonable.

 

[pfshoen]

Still true. It's why I haven't completely abandoned the idea of purchasing one.

I know my previous post makes me sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist and nothing is certain in the claims I cited. Plus @CDN38's "2 year"comment sheds some light on the timeline questions. Still there is that nagging feeling that I'm in negotiations with a determined real estate agent. You know the kind. They come in with a full price offer then subtly drag their feet and, after all the competition has drifted away, begin to slowly chip away at you. "How 'bout throwing in such-and such?". "My client really wants the old weather-beaten picnic table in the side yard". "We'd like new carpet in the master.". In the end you're tempted to give in just to get the deal over and be done with them. If you're not careful you'll think "How'd it end up being my turn in the barrel?".



If the design of the Grenadier was such that it could rebuilt like a Defender - i.e. from the ground up after an accident or rollover - then sales in the developing world would be much more important. As it is they're really delivering something more akin to a Toyota 70 series which was never available in NA other than in Canada for a few short years back in the 1980s (iirc) and only as a short wheelbase version.

Utilitymaster = Poverty Spec?

No doubt the usual sales incentives are still at work along with all too common distasteful practices.
Tesla cataloged a bare bones model my son put a deposit on then told him it was nla and he'd have to upgrade, which was a downgrade in his eyes. Was it a bait and switch plan from the start or caused by evolving practical necessities of production and finance?
Agreed that the Gren looks comparable to the Toyo 70's. That they didn't bring them to the USA suggests they thought chances of success were poor and points at the risk Ineos is taking, which is huge. Toyota is super smart with huge muscle and they passed on it.
I doubt the Gren will be big in developing countries or with the military. Rover quit selling Defs here 26 years ago, even tho mil and developing country sales were still strong. One model cannot meet the requirements of both anymore.

 

[pfshoen]

I believe there was mention that the lockers had shortcomings that would be corrected for production.
As far as I can tell, every type of diff, open, LSD or locker has drawbacks in certain situations and ultimately is a compromise.
Spooling is more a prob with front than rear wheels. Off cambers are dicey. Driver turns selectable lockers on and off. LSD's decide themselves when to kick in and out (which keeps things interesting on ice), although left foot braking may help initiate torque biasing sometimes. Opens are useless in a pinch but perfect for hard surfaces wet or dry.
No way does that cover the subject but I haven't been able to find an ideal solution for an all-road all-weather truck.
RRC's had selectable locking center diffs for years. The last ones didn't even have that.

 

[RBBailey]

I drive a G320 now, three locks: Center first, rear, then front, in reverse when unlocking. However, I haven't had any issues in times when I've needed them. The front, for instance, will unlock almost as soon as you get any differential movement from that axle, as in, as soon as you turn the wheel. And the rear has been the same. Slow roll seems to unlock them both within a few inches. However, the system is slightly complicated, and I wouldn't want a problem in the field -- manual electrically actuated pneumatic pump for hydraulic lockers. They do require maintenance, but I've never had anything break.

 

[Andrew]

I’ve been trying to follow what’s been going on with the Grenadier launch. There’s a lot of info on this Grenadier forum: https://www.theineosforum.com/

It looks like lots of customer Grenadiers have been delivered to dealers in Europe, but are waiting to be delivered to customers to polish out some issues. One customer got to view his Grenadier and discovered that the windshield wipers turned on and would not turn off. It appears the vehicle is heavily integrated electronically. I suppose that’s nice for the dealers and manufacturer to be able to fix issues with software updates, but this was suppose to be a simple and reliable vehicle that could be fixed in the field. That’s a real shame.

I think what they need to do is let customers have access to repair software on their own laptops (or tablet) and make it so it doesn’t require an internet connection. Then they could just carry that with them along with their other tools. I’m not interested in a vehicle that cannot be fixed independently.

 

[pmatusov]

Here's a little recap from our test drive.

 

[pfshoen]

Excellent report.
Sounds like seats are true to the utility purpose. Interior space is a disappointment, but it's hard to beat an LR3. Ineos plan on an LWB model.
Gren has to take the place of the old Def since there isn't a better alternative UV for sale new. Lots of SUV's and luxury SUV's though, and looks like the Gren is not that.
IF the Gren ends up making money, it may goad other manufacturers to produce more utilitarian models.
Although I'm a big fan of the Gren, I doubt I'll ever trade for my old Rovers.

 

[TJS]

Gren has to take the place of the old Def since there isn't a better alternative UV for sale new.
IF the Gren ends up making money, it may goad other manufacturers to produce more utilitarian models.

We can hope. I would fear a smoke and mirrors approach if any major manufacturer decides there's a market for such a vehicle. Shareholders will demand worthwhile sales numbers which would probably result in a body design that has the "look" plopped down on a Camry drivetrain.

I was recently at a major (vintage) Bronco parts supplier. When my conversation with the manager turned to the simplicity of various older 4X4s and the ease of repairing them in the field he said this:

"None of my younger customers care about that. They just want the image. They pay someone else to fix it if it breaks."

Although I'm a big fan of the Gren, I doubt I'll ever trade for my old Rovers.

I too was hoping that the Grenadier really would be the new Defender. While still very interested in it, the mental effort to rationalize it as such became too demanding. The debate in our household now circles around how to purchase one and still keep our 25-50 year old Jeeps, Land Cruisers, and pick-ups.

Or buy and restore an older Defender or FJ60.

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Here's a little recap from our test drive.

Thanks for that!!

"...we decided to check out the California poppy bloom..."

Growing up in Riverside we were always leery of even stepping on the protected poppy ... or so we thought ... just sure the poppy police would swoop in and get us!!

 

[pmatusov]

Thanks for that!!

"...we decided to check out the California poppy bloom..."

Growing up in Riverside we were always leery of even stepping on the protected poppy ... or so we thought ... just sure the poppy police would swoop in and get us!!

Never knew California poppy is protected! There's gazillions of them every year - just too few now to step on, it's been way too cold. The knob we drove onto must have been under snow a week ago.

 

[Siia109]

We can hope. I would fear a smoke and mirrors approach if any major manufacturer decides there's a market for such a vehicle. Shareholders will demand worthwhile sales numbers which would probably result in a body design that has the "look" plopped down on a Camry drivetrain.

I was recently at a major (vintage) Bronco parts supplier. When my conversation with the manager turned to the simplicity of various older 4X4s and the ease of repairing them in the field he said this:

"None of my younger customers care about that. They just want the image. They pay someone else to fix it if it breaks."

Todays kids (my 3 included under 20) are so conditioned to take things in 30 second bites - from TicToc to surviving in COD, to snapchats to the volume of information coming at them everyday. I had my oldest repack the bearings to the D90- and I explained to him how the whole hub assembly worked, the forces from the torque of the drivetrain the weight of the car to the lateral loads as it turns a simple corner and how the brakes worked. I let him use all the tools - air gun, torque wrench, ratchets, blow out the bearings making them spin with the air (all the fun stuff).

When he finished I said ok - one down one to go. And he was like Yeah I got other stuff to do...and he headed back in the house.

Another 30-40 minutes of doing the same thing again was simply not his bag. The repetitive nature of this work fails to entice them? Its not like its labor intensive so exhaustion was not the reason. It takes patience, persistence and an engaged mind to do a lot of these tasks (especially when you are a shadetree mechanic and don't do it a lot) and that is everything opposite of what this generation has been training to do.

Its not for everybody - and that's ok. But I don't know any of their friends who wrench - or have a "fixer up" on the road. Only one gets 10+ year old BMW's and plugs add-on's to them - from computer chips to sound systems, straight pipes, and LED lighting crap. Its not really wrenching - more like You-tube certified Plug and Play.

As you said - its really is about the image.

 

[brdhmltn]

Southeast test drives have been up for a few days...

INEOS Grenadier | Event Listing

Events Listing from INEOS Grenadier

grenadierevents.com

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Never knew California poppy is protected! There's gazillions of them every year - just too few now to step on, it's been way too cold. The knob we drove onto must have been under snow a week ago.

Heck I don't know ... it was the 60's, we were convinced that they were

We were the same kids that poked at scorched snakes, etc after brush fires ... I'm getting off topic.

Grenadier good ... just soo snazzy and expensive for me thanks.

edit ... nope, not protected

California Poppy

wildlife.ca.gov

 

[TJS]

Here's a little recap from our test drive.

Nice write up. I especially liked the accompanying pics which show a couple of things:

1) It will be easy to replace a starter in the field because, even with a modestly diligent regimen of turning it off, the Start/Stop function will cause it to fail far more often and in the most inconvenient of places vs. a starter on a non-Start/Stop equipped vehicle.

2) The differential drain plug is in a pretty good location. I'd never seen one like that before. I almost thought it was a ring gear anti-deflection bolt or something. Too bad the diffs aren't removable. Any field work will have to be done in place while laying on your back. (no, I don't own a lift.)

Ineos has now stated that all NA vehicles will come with a full complement of nannies. Lane keeping assist, emergency autonomous braking, and drowsy driver warning amongst others. It is my opinion that these functions encourage distracted and haphazard driving so I'm not thrilled but there's probably no way to avoid them on a new car these days. Below are a couple of less-than-impressed articles. There's some video included.

Automatic Emergency Braking Isn’t As Safe as You Might Think: AAA

AAA found that automatic emergency braking simply isn't capable of helping out in a wide variety of common crash scenarios.

www.thedrive.com

Automatic emergency braking is not great at preventing crashes at normal speeds

AEB wasn’t great at preventing two common crashes.

www.theverge.com

 

[vtlandrover]

I don't know about where you live, but especially since March, 2020 (i.e. the start of the pandemic), any pro-social trends toward reduced cell phone use in my area - due to a ban on hand-held devices - has totally gone out the window. No exaggeration: 75% of Vermont drivers appear to either have the phone to their ears or have both hands tapping away texting, probably in large part due to a lack of enforcement ("defund the police!" ). Automatic braking is just fine with me. FWIW, both of my kid's Foresters have it and none of us have ever seen it go off... to me, these systems aren't making themselves known, let alone encouraging bad behavior - but if it'll reduce the likelihood or severity of whiplash from some distracted person rear ending me, I'm all for it.