Symptoms: 300Tdi

[RBBailey]

I've mentioned this on the build thread, and in the thread about white start-up smoke, but I thought I'd start this thread as I am going to try to actually address my issues this week sometime..... sometime.

Symptoms:

1. On again, off again rough running from the engine. It does not seem to be losing power, although I sort of subconsciously drive it like I'm in limp mode when it is a rough mood. It has a certain vibe and loud running sound. And is annoying to drive. Or it is nice and smooth, and I feel like I can ramp up the turbo and get a lot out of the truck. Passengers have noticed the difference.
2. It does have a dusting of white/grey smoke at cold idle, and will blow white when revved when cold. This goes away after only a mile or so of driving.
3. While driving there is a haze of dark smoke when under load. And a small cloud when accelerating before the turbo spoils up.
4. It only gets about 19 to 20 mpg, even on freeway.
5. Not losing coolant.
6. Goes through about half a quart of oil in 3k miles. But that is very much a guess, since I really only just got to 3k.
7. Timing was set by Ships Mechanical. I checked the timing with the pins in the flywheel and pump method. I can?t say that it was exactly right on, but it they did line up.
8. The injectors are new from Robert Davis.

What I'm doing about it:

1. First, I have been trying to drive through it, to make sure it isn't just my imagination.
2. Second, I have used additives, and have run two tanks of B20 to see if there are any changes.
3. I've looked for injector leaks.
4. Now I am using the max recommended fuel additive with the last five gallons to see if it changes anything.
5. I'm going to change the fuel filter this week.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

I would have started with the filter. Yours may be recent and thats why you havent changed it? Diesels require extremely clean fuel, filtered down to a few microns. The smallest bit of trash can mess up the spray pattern even on a new injector.

I remember you converted to tdi. Did you change the tank or lines from the tank ? Do you have a sedimenter in your system ?If not then the diesel additives may have cleaned up some old gasoline varnish deposits and those may be caught in your filter.

I'd change the filter and then look to adjust the IP. Sounds like its running lean or has an air leak somewhere.

 

[Red90]

Everything sounds normal other than the intermittent rough running. Could be a ton of things. As it is a conversion, is everything as per a stock 300TDI Defender or are things different. With conversions, it can be hard to help out as you never know what custom work has been done.

As Doug says, maybe bad fuel or a plugged filter. Make sure the lift pump is working.

 

[RDavisinVA]

Do you have a sedimenter close to the fuel tank and 12V fuel pump after the sedimenter?
The will ensure water and particulate trapping and adequate fuel flow.
Have you checked the fuel for algae?

 

[Napalm00]

I'd probably Reroute the fuel lines as in the other thread with brand new rubber. I'm assuming the rough running is due to air ingress. If you only replace the lines are reuse all the land rover hard fitting should only cost $40

#2, 3, 4 all seem Normal

#5 oil consumption seems high, check/clean cyclone breather or replace and check for valve seals that have ridden up the stems

 

[RBBailey]

I would have started with the filter. Yours may be recent and thats why you havent changed it? Diesels require extremely clean fuel, filtered down to a few microns. The smallest bit of trash can mess up the spray pattern even on a new injector.

I remember you converted to tdi. Did you change the tank or lines from the tank ? Do you have a sedimenter in your system ?If not then the diesel additives may have cleaned up some old gasoline varnish deposits and those may be caught in your filter.

I'd change the filter and then look to adjust the IP. Sounds like its running lean or has an air leak somewhere.

This confirms what I've managed to come up with in talking with people. I'm going to change the filter tomorrow, 10 micron. I'd like to get smaller, but have not had a chance to source.

I have been suspicious of the fuel lines since the conversion. And since I know the tank is leaking, and since I know there is a fault of some kind in the pick up... Thus the movement towards rebuilding the fuel line system. I think the symptoms I have and the current state of the fuel system may be connected in some way.

I keep coming back to the roughness being something to do with the IP. And it sort of makes sense that this could be something that happens one drive, then not another. (In my feeble mind, at least.)

BTW, any tips for changing the filter?

 

[RBBailey]

Do you have a sedimenter close to the fuel tank and 12V fuel pump after the sedimenter?
The will ensure water and particulate trapping and adequate fuel flow.
Have you checked the fuel for algae?

This is where I'm headed soon.

I'm leaning toward some high-end rubber fuel lines rated for racing and high pressure and jazz music. Do you know of a good sedimenter and pump that I could easily put into a convenient spot?

Maybe go here to answer if you could: https://nas-row.com/showthread.php?t=1504

How check for algae? And if there is some in the fuel, does it stay in the tank and lines and cause problems even with fresh fuel?

I have to give an update. I was down to 5 gallons or so of fuel, and was going to let it run out, then drain the tank, and start the project to rebuild the fuel system. But I don't have the parts yet, and my wife's car broke down yesterday (...2008 Mercedes, and $3600 out of pocket for that by the end of this week...) and the Range Rover keeps dying when it is driven, so I need the Defender.

I decided to try some simple things first. So I dumped a max ratio of additive into a 5 gallon can, then put that into the tank for a total of about 10 gallons of rich diesel. I idled it in the garage for a bit last night. Then today I took it on a drive. I could tell that it was a good day. Nice and smooth. It barely warmed up for this drive before I let it sit for 20 minutes, then took another drive for about 12 miles. Still, a nice and smooth ride.

I'll give it another try tomorrow. If I'm not seeing the rough running in 50-60% of the drives over the next few days, I may have just discovered that our local diesel is really the cause, and that a full dose of additive may be the simple answer. Although, I'm still going to fix the fuel system as described above.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

BTW, any tips for changing the filter?

It is hard/difficult to help diagnose or give advice on a truck that was converted to tdi when you cannot see how important things like fuel lines, sedimenter and filter etc were done.
Diesels are very low maint and simple but zero air leaks and clean fuel are the two imperatives.

If you have a correct 300 tdi filter and fuel lines it should be mounted to the lip of the fender up behind the radiator on the right side. Replacement is as simple as unscrewing it, filling a new one with diesel or atf and screwing it on. Diesel filters are critical, you should carry spares @ all times. I have had to change them on the side of the road several times. I went through three filters on one tank of bad fuel once.

Be careful about running large amounts of additive. Additives are usually high in solvents and detergents. The Bosch VE pump gets its lubrication from the diesel fuel that runs through it. Our low sulfur diesel is already pretty low in lubricity.

 

[RDavisinVA]

What UD said.
BTW a self priming fuel system due to a 12V fuel pump just after the sedimenter eliminates the need to fill an empty filter during renewal.
Just screw in the filter right out of the box bone dry, turn on the key, wait a few minutes, and then start the engine.

Have sold starters to owners who installed a dry filter them cranked the engine so much that the starter fried.

We build our own sedimenters and make them available to forum members.
The Airtex External Electric Fuel Pump E8012S works well.
DO NOT install the small filter that comes with the pump.

 

[RDavisinVA]

Regarding post 9.
I don't want to confuse anyone.

This: "Have sold starters to owners who installed a dry filter them cranked the engine so much that the starter fried."

Should have read:
"Have sold starters to owners who installed a dry filter without having the self priming 12V fuel pump who then cranked the engine so much that the starter fried."

 

[RBBailey]

It is hard/difficult to help diagnose or give advice on a truck that was converted to tdi when you cannot see how important things like fuel lines, sedimenter and filter etc were done.
Diesels are very low maint and simple but zero air leaks and clean fuel are the two imperatives.

If you have a correct 300 tdi filter and fuel lines it should be mounted to the lip of the fender up behind the radiator on the right side. Replacement is as simple as unscrewing it, filling a new one with diesel or atf and screwing it on. Diesel filters are critical, you should carry spares @ all times. I have had to change them on the side of the road several times. I went through three filters on one tank of bad fuel once.

I'm using the stock V8 lines right now. This stuff, along with the idea that my metal lines look like old, crusty metal lines, is the reason I'm moving to get the parts to update (retrofit?) my fuel system. (See other thread.)

Be careful about running large amounts of additive. Additives are usually high in solvents and detergents. The Bosch VE pump gets its lubrication from the diesel fuel that runs through it. Our low sulfur diesel is already pretty low in lubricity.

Your last statement about additives -- are you pointing out the difference between a detergent type vs. a lubrication type? If our diesel is low in lubricity, don't we want to add some more lubrication in the form of some additive? And isn't it good to use a cleaner type on occasion? Forgive my ignorance, I've only barely done my homework.

This is what I am using, and I previously had only dropped something like 5oz. for 20 gallons. On the 10 gallons I have in there now, I used about 5oz. -- so doubled my dose to give it a kick in the pants to see if there was a change.

 

[Red90]

I'm using the stock V8 lines right now.

I assume/hope the stock V8 fuel filter was removed from the line?

One other problem with the gas piping is the return goes to the top of the tank and not the bottom.

 

[RBBailey]

I assume/hope the stock V8 fuel filter was removed from the line?

One other problem with the gas piping is the return goes to the top of the tank and not the bottom.

Yes, and yes.

Your second point is one that evidently is the cause of my break down on the freeway this summer.

 

[Viton]

I assume/hope the stock V8 fuel filter was removed from the line?

One other problem with the gas piping is the return goes to the top of the tank and not the bottom.

I did a 300Tdi repower in 2001 from a 4.0 configuration. I left the V8 inline gas filter in place. When it starts getting plugged, my max speed is 45mph, regardless of how hard I press the accelerator. I know many people will tell you to remove the gas filter, in 16 years I've only had to replace mine twice in 170,000 miles. I live in the desert southwest so getting water in our fuel doesn't even seem to occur. I have the std. LR diesel fuel filter properly placed on the right fender as mentioned in an earlier post here too.

I've had my tank out several times (what a pain !!) and the return fuel goes right into the "can" that the V8 fuel pump would have set in. I Think this is beneficial as in cold weather the warmed fuel mixes with the in tank fuel warming it on it's way back to the filter & IP. When you pull these lines off the tank be sure to mark their proper position because if you reverse them, you'll run out of fuel even though the gauge will read 1/2 tank ( don't ask me how I know ). Next time around I promise myself I measure & cut a hole in the floorboard to make the following time an easy task.

 

[RDavisinVA]

I did a 300Tdi repower in 2001 from a 4.0 configuration. I left the V8 inline gas filter in place. When it starts getting plugged, my max speed is 45mph, regardless of how hard I press the accelerator. I know many people will tell you to remove the gas filter, in 16 years I've only had to replace mine twice in 170,000 miles...

The paper filter used with gasoline is just fine in your area even though it is not suppose to be compatible with Diesel.
In your area, water, algae, and other fuel contamination is most likely rare to nonexistent.

An enhanced cellulose or synthetic version of your filter is compatible with diesel, but since the filter is on the small side could clog up if you decide to drive to a humid climate or get a bad batch of fuel outside of your dry area (on a trip for example).
We have gotten a bad batch of diesel more than once that requires draining the sedimenter and changing the much larger diesel fuel filter multiple times to be able to maintain speed.
Then you have to pour algicide into the tank to kill the algae growth.

 

[Red90]

Just don't ever drive anywhere cold. Cold diesel and small filters do not work well together.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

We have gotten a bad batch of diesel more than once that requires draining the sedimenter and changing the much larger diesel fuel filter multiple times to be able to maintain speed.

you aren't fooling anyone Robert you knowingly put bullshit (fryer oil, used motor oil, old gasoline, home heating oil, old atf, etc ) in your tank, all the time

 

[RBBailey]

LOL

 

[nas90tdi]

He told me a story no less than 6 months ago about buying 75 yr old fuel oil out of someones basement tank one time. Can't trust him at all about clean fuel. My truck would die if even smelled that shit I assume.

 

[RDavisinVA]

He told me a story no less than 6 months ago about buying 75 yr old fuel oil out of someones basement tank one time. Can't trust him at all about clean fuel. My truck would die if even smelled that shit I assume.

After being filtered and mixed with 50 gallons of 10 year old gasoline, the Mercedes OM617 ran like a clock on that shit. LMAO