Punch list for winch stalling problem

[rocky]

Have had a persistent issue with my truck stalling during winch usage. Its way overdue to fix.

With the battery under the seat rather than hood as on my D1, the positive and negative cables and their sizing have to be high on my punch list of things to check.

What else should I look at?

 

[Napalm00]

If the truck is stalling making the cables larger won't actually help. The larger the cable the more current it can actually pass. So if you provide more current to the winch the load is actually going to be higher on your engine.

Most likely your idle is just set too low.

Upgrading the cable size is definitely a worthwhile and ever otherwise. I use 2/0 and it works well. You need about 13-15 feet of each to do both home runs

 

[Uncle Douglas]

Same problem.
We have an M15000 on the trail 90. Its the largest 12v winch Warn makes, expected the large amperage draw.
The truck is built to the point we hadnt really had to use it until the difflock crosspin broke on
Thursday afternoon @ Winter Romp when trails were still very green/ un established.
Hit the remote button and the engine died. Thought that was odd, started the truck again
and hit the remote and it faltered but didnt die. Took a good 20 mins to turn the truck around and point it back out to the Ridge Rd.
It cut the truck off a couple more times. We have all vehicle ground run through a HD disconnect switch rated to handle the amperage. Cables are made from large gauge welding cable to carry the load and keep temps down. Its a 100% computer controlled 4.0 gems engine with new/recent 120 amp alternator. If I hold the rpm around 1500 it works fine. Don't winch much so hasnt been an issue we've pursued but is a nag since we upsized everything to prevent this kind of problem.
Battery is a single 950 cca one and was new last September.
Love to have someone smarter than me diagnose it

 

[WreckITFrank]

my vote is on the battery, unless either are new. Not that you need a new battery to use a winch, but you need a decent one. When I sold auto parts it was almost like clockwork, super monster truck guy would come in an buy a shiny new winch. A few weeks later he would be back pulling one of my yellow tops off the shelf and slapping it on the counter tearing up at the price. this was many years ago, and things have changed a bit, but i would imagine with both vehicles in fine running order, that's where I would start. Batteries get tired easily when a winch is pulling and an alternator is pushing, especially if they are old.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

anything is possible I guess.
Ours was new last September, right before MAR.
Its a trail rig, not a dd. Maybe has a couple hundred starts on it.
Spends most of its time sitting with the battery disconnect in disconnect mode
in between events.

 

[WreckITFrank]

anything is possible I guess.
Ours was new last September, right before MAR.
Its a trail rig, not a dd. Maybe has a couple hundred starts on it.
Spends most of its time sitting with the battery disconnect in disconnect mode
in between events.

could the voltage drop be sensed by the distributor/coil and shutting down by default? I have zero working knowledge of rover gas engines or their ignition.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

no distributor on this version. , supposed to be ok down to 8.5v or so once running

 

[Napalm00]

I don't think it's the voltage that screwing with you guys. I think the instant demand for close to 900 amps is probably putting such a load on the accessory drive that it's physically stalling the engine.

Local guy here in California had an RRC that would randomly stall. Turns out the front bearing in his alternator was starting to seize up. When it would seize it would immediately stop the engine when at idle and stall it. No squeal, nada .

If it's doable if you can start the truck and then disconnect the alternator from the charging circuit, then blip the winch at load. This will rule out the alternator.

Maybe park the truck under a large tree and put the cable straight up?

 

[rocky]

Historically (ie in D1 time) I was used to revving the engine whenever we winched and that worked well. Today, despite doing that the load from the winch (up to 450 or so amp max) drops the voltage down and it stalls. Even if winching out. Battery is relatively new, but I find myself thinking for the first time about a dual battery set up just so the pool of volts. amps and watts that it and the engine draw from is bigger. Putting the truck on one battery and winch on the other.... Would that be a fools errand?

 

[jymmiejamz]

I don't think it's the voltage that screwing with you guys. I think the instant demand for close to 900 amps is probably putting such a load on the accessory drive that it's physically stalling the engine.

What winch is drawing 900 amps? I just looked up my winch (Superwinch Husky) and it only draws 450A. A Warn M15000 draws 460A.

Have had a persistent issue with my truck stalling during winch usage. Its way overdue to fix.

What else should I look at?

Is this any time you use the winch? Assuming this is a V8 truck... The first thing I would want to see is the battery voltage while winching. If your battery is inadequate, the alternator will not put out enough to compensate for the load on the battery. The other thing to consider is that there is likely corrosion in the wiring harness between the battery and essential components such as the fuel pump and fuel injection ECU. Off the top of my head I don't know where the harness goes and what splices and headers are involved, but based on my experience with Defenders, there is always corrosion behind the dash because the bulkhead vent seals are usually leaking. You could very likely have 2V of voltage drop between the battery and the fuel injection ECU. Under normal conditions there would be 14V at the battery and 12V at the ECU. If the battery voltage drops to 10V during winching you would only have 8V at the fuel injection ECU and the engine would likely stall.

To really diagnose the issue, you need to be able to consistently duplicate it. Short of getting yourself stuck, you could hook the rear of the truck to a tree and winch off of another tree whilst monitoring the battery voltage until it stalls. The you can see if it is originating at the battery or elsewhere.

 

[rlynch356]

2 things here...
Both probably have a grounding problem . The disconnect needs to be on the positive side. This is to totally cut power, the winch is grounded at the motor and ground always finds a way. You need solid grounds for the battery and the winch needs to be hooked only to the battery neg terminal (no frame grounding unless it’s in line

And the battery can’t take the load, so either it’s dying (check voltage and amp draw when lightly loading the winch)

You will prob find that the voltage on the battery drops to 7-9v when you have load...

Battery can’t take it, spiking the alt at idle will stall the truck

 

[rocky]

The Voltmeter definitely drops to that range.

 

[rlynch356]

The IACV has only has a small range it can compensate for, demand is higher so it stalls...

Full load is in the 450 amp range, so the battery has to deliver. Doesn’t matter when you put it in, but it’s how it can deliver and recovery on the alternator output.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

Cant speak to whats happening with Chris's 14cux truck.

Fwiw had a VDO voltmeter in the 90 when this happened. dropped from around 13.8-14 to 12.
Winch is wired direct to battery with 2/0 welding cable. Disagree on switching positive vs ground. Winch cannot find ground if nothing on the truck, including the chassis, is not grounded. May bypass it just to see if the issue has anything to do with the disconnect. Guess having the big battery load tested would be a good idea as well.
Thought it may be the power supply to the ECU/Gems harness but Drew used 12 gauge wire and thats larger than the original loom used.
I had read in the d1 manual that the GEMS system ECU should still run down to the 8-9 volt range.
We had also upsized the original cable from the alternator back to the starter lug where the alternator and battery connect @ the starter as well as the battery cable from the starter back when building this truck. For now a few more rpm solve the issue, will chase it some day. A single large amperage battery has always been sufficent in our tdi, and 14cu, and even other Gems trucks for winching. Just annoyed that after spending not insignificant funds on uprating all the copper involved we have an issue.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

you can start the truck and then disconnect the alternator from the charging circuit, then blip the winch at load. This will rule out the alternator.

May be bad information but have been told many times over the years to not disconnect an alternator while an engine is running and under load as it will blow the diodes/regulator. Also have personally blown an alternator winching a non-running truck with the key in the "run" position

 

[rlynch356]

Yeah don’t load a non running truck..
Doug the electric motors short to ground by design.

 

[rocky]

There is a very nice thread at the other place on winch wiring. To protect the innocent.... https://bit.ly/2QCBXHx I'll look under the truck tomorrow at the cable routing and size.... Assuming I dislike what I see, something like this rather than using a battery cable might be best. https://www.wiringproducts.com/4-0-gauge-battery-cable

 

[Uncle Douglas]

Doug the electric motors short to ground by design.

Yep, aware, this is my day job. Actually build these things for people.
If the neg terminal of the battery is not connected to anything on the vehicle, there is no ground to short to.
Its not possible. In a DC system a ground is required for a short to be possible.
My negative terminal is switched, its the equivalent of having no battery in the vehicle. For this reason a ground disconnect is
my method.

 

[Napalm00]

May be bad information but have been told many times over the years to not disconnect an alternator while an engine is running and under load as it will blow the diodes/regulator. Also have personally blown an alternator winching a non-running truck with the key in the "run" position

Could be a real thing , I'd believe it

 

[rlynch356]

The winch motor will short to ground internally via the casing which is connected to ground via the bumper... just saying

Every racing sanctioning body requires a cut on the positive.. (and alt source) cutting ground “may” work but not always..

for instance Albright just changed the wiring scheme because of this...

Any drag and you have fire by cutting the ground (pos. Is still live and the short fuse s not resolved)