Possible Moab trail closings.

[MountainD]

It wouldn't surprise me if the National Park Service/Wilderness areas only allowed EV vehicles within their boundaries first. So if you wanted to visit Yosemite/RMNP, you needed to be in an EV or 0-emissions vehicle. I hope they do not say "EV" as there is a lot of tech being produced on fuel cells which makes ton more sense due to being able to swap out things like hydrogen in a few minutes than electricity in many hours... (BTW, those "rapid" car chargers are not recommended by manufacturers as it degrades battery life, lol

 

[meatblanket]

The general trend in the NPS is to ban entry to private vehicles altogether, and put park visitors on shuttle buses. Those can be electric, of course.

 

[donb]

It is definitely public land, however I think most people agree that the public in general, sucks.

I'm 100% behind requiring permits for $$ that would both dissuade people from trashing the place, as well as put money towards hiring people to maintain the area without increasing taxes.

This works quite well in places like MV which requires a pretty hefty permit to drive on the beaches, which keeps more people off them, and them a lot cleaner.

I wonder if you could do a volunteer voucher program. So if you do trailwork, remove garbage, etc you can use the area for "free". I love the adage "you've got to pay to play". It seems to separate the people that really want to enjoy and be a part of the outdoors from those that just are looking for something to do.

 

[Tbaumer]

I can't help but think there has to be a better way. We have so many laws/rules/restrictions that aren't enforced & the funding/interest isn't there to make a difference. Once you shut things off, they never reopen again. I'm lucky to have grown up in a lower population state with a lot of wilderness options. I have seen the illegal dumping & makeshift trails. I have been a Boy Scout leader & done clean ups with my troop. I didn't always have a lot of money growing up or when I was raising my family, so free camping, exploring, mushroom and shed hunting, creek swimming, etc. was a healthy good time. We now have large monuments of wilderness, that used to be open, that no wheeled vehicles can enter (even though there are a lot of logging/BLM roads already there). I get the impression that most of us on this forum have expendable money for "pay to play" permits, I don't think that should be a qualification to define who wants to really enjoy & be part of the outdoors. How do you get the irresponsible to care? I don't have the answer.

 

[Z.G]

I can't help but think there has to be a better way. We have so many laws/rules/restrictions that aren't enforced & the funding/interest isn't there to make a difference. Once you shut things off, they never reopen again. I'm lucky to have grown up in a lower population state with a lot of wilderness options. I have seen the illegal dumping & makeshift trails. I have been a Boy Scout leader & done clean ups with my troop. I didn't always have a lot of money growing up or when I was raising my family, so free camping, exploring, mushroom and shed hunting, creek swimming, etc. was a healthy good time. We now have large monuments of wilderness, that used to be open, that no wheeled vehicles can enter (even though there are a lot of logging/BLM roads already there). I get the impression that most of us on this forum have expendable money for "pay to play" permits, I don't think that should be a qualification to define who wants to really enjoy & be part of the outdoors. How do you get the irresponsible to care? I don't have the answer.

That's probably where Don's comment comes in. A volunteer voucher program would allow people without the disposable income to join in, and tourists/people with $ can pay their way in. That way it at least gives a sense of ownership on both levels, and maybe it's a step forward? I agree, no easy/perfect solution

 

[donb]

That's probably where Don's comment comes in. A volunteer voucher program would allow people without the disposable income to join in, and tourists/people with $ can pay their way in. That way it at least gives a sense of ownership on both levels, and maybe it's a step forward? I agree, no easy/perfect solution

Exactly. Part of the "pay" is volunteering. You are paying one way or another: money or work. It's something that is used in an area of mtn/bmx bike riding with certain types of trails (although that mentality has waned over the years sadly enough).

Another part of what I had in mind is that it could carry to other areas. So @Tbaumer your work with the Boy Scouts at your local trails would be a key/token/ticket to enjoy other areas.

It's a pie in the sky thinking but if my local spot is a hiking/biking park and I do 20 hours of volunteer work it would be good for a certain amount of time four wheeling at another network. Which would give people better trail use habits. Sure as shit I won't litter or tear trail up at an out of state area if I'm cleaning up and doing work on my local trails.

 

[evilfij]

Volunteer is cumbersome. Take the time spent volunteering and get a second job to pay for the permit. I may sound like Ron Swanson, but privatizing (or rather charging money to limit the amount of people) the parks is about the only way to keep the riff raft out. Maybe it’s a lottery, permit fee, season etc. like hunting and fishing if the cost to limit attendance is preclusive to people of limited to normal means. Around here there is very little and even getting a camping spot (hiking in) in NJ there is a long wait and you have to book in advance. I am not even sure if you can drive in the pine barrens anymore.

 

[chris snell]

I am fine with permits on the condition that they stop closing trails and re-open historic trails with a limited number of weekly permits. This will never happen, though, because of the attitude of no-compromise.

 

[meatblanket]

I am fine with permits on the condition that they stop closing trails and re-open historic trails with a limited number of weekly permits. This will never happen, though, because of the attitude of no-compromise.

Very true. If I remember right this is coming about as part of a settlement of a successful lawsuit brought by SUWA. SUWA is not interested in compromise, they are more interested in blocking all vehicular access to public lands by filing lawsuits. Lawsuits backed by special interest groups with deep pockets, whose contributors consist largely of people who have never been to the areas they are seeking to lock up.

I'm for controlling access and limiting crowds through a permit system if the problem is overuse and/or abuse of the resource. But I'm not sure that is what is going on here.

Btw, the Red Rocks 4-Wheelers that organizes and runs Easter Jeep Safari does a good job of promoting responsible use. The registered participants of EJS are not part of the problem, but are more likely going to be the part of any solution that continues to allow motorized access to these areas.

 

[donb]

Volunteer is cumbersome. Take the time spent volunteering and get a second job to pay for the permit. I may sound like Ron Swanson, but privatizing (or rather charging money to limit the amount of people) the parks is about the only way to keep the riff raft out. Maybe it’s a lottery, permit fee, season etc. like hunting and fishing if the cost to limit attendance is preclusive to people of limited to normal means. Around here there is very little and even getting a camping spot (hiking in) in NJ there is a long wait and you have to book in advance. I am not even sure if you can drive in the pine barrens anymore.

I agree the volunteer model would be cumbersome. I put it out as an option but I think you are correct with the only way to keep the riff raff out is via money.

And with the volunteer work I do at the local park I've noticed a very tiny percent of the trail users come out to help. And of those, a small amount actually know how to do trail work or really care to learn or really work during the session.

 

[jymmiejamz]

I think the problem with requiring volunteering for people who can’t afford a permit is that those same people probably don’t have the vacation time to take off of work to do the volunteering.

 

[meatblanket]

The virtual public meeting occurred yesterday, I attended and learned a few things. It was confirmed that this is occurring because of the SUWA lawsuit, which in effect compels the BLM to "justify" the existence of every road in the travel management plan. After receiving public input, the BLM will select on of the proposed alternatives or may do some mixing and matching depending upon the content of the public comments. What is needed to keep these roads open is a comment as to why the road is justified. I.e., it leads to a view point, it's the only access to a given area, etc..

The problem is that this involves hundreds of miles of trails. It's unlikely that any single person has driven all of them. So they are relying upon "route reports" that have been created, which identify any concerns with natural or cultural resource conservation. Some of the things mentioned were bighorn sheep lambing areas, and complaints from river users about noise from ORVs.

RR4W indicates that ALL of the proposed alternatives (except Alternative A, the "take no action" alternative) impact at least one Safari route. The BLM personnel at the public meeting claimed the exact opposite, which is disturbing. One would think they would know the location of all the Safari routes.

In a nutshell, BLM is certain to close roads or it will invite yet another lawsuit from SUWA for "not doing its job". The BLM seems to think that if a road is lightly traveled, that means it's not very important and is therefore subject to closure even if it doesn't present any resource conservation issues. That is troubling to me, as those are precisely the roads that I will seek out if I'm looking for solitude, which is a very limited resource these days.

Unfortunately I don't have time to drive all of these trails or to even read all of the route reports which identify any conservation issues. I do think that the RR4W has identified those specific areas that they are concerned about, so I'll probably include those in my e-planning comment to the BLM.

Btw, the process has already been completed in the Canyon Rims travel management area in San Juan county, and they lost only about 53 miles of roads. This one is more contentious because of the popularity of the routes included in the proposed closures.

 

[blueboy]

The general trend in the NPS is to ban entry to private vehicles altogether, and put park visitors on shuttle buses. Those can be electric, of course.

Exactly! Pretty sure Grand Canyon was the leader in this concept. Real shame imho. The NPS has changed so much from the time I worked at Yellowstone in 1970 and ‘71.

 

[chris snell]

Anybody got a list of SUWA corporate sponsors? I don’t want to give them another dime.

 

[MountainD]

I don't know much about SUWA. Are they primarily opposed to OHV use in areas? Scanning their materials, it appears that this is the case. If their role is to keep areas open, even under management, that is cool, but if it is to keep them open without OHV, not cool. It appears the later.

 

[blueboy]

T

I don't know much about SUWA. Are they primarily opposed to OHV use in areas? Scanning their materials, it appears that this is the case. If their role is to keep areas open, even under management, that is cool, but if it is to keep them open without OHV, not cool. It appears the later.

This is their position on Labyrinth Canyon. Close to ORVs:

• Close the motorized vehicle routes that most significantly impact the canyon, including Hey Joe Canyon and Hell Roaring ORV routes, and Dead Cow and the Tubes motorcycle routes, as well as other routes that can be seen or heard from the river corridor.

 

[blueboy]

Anybody got a list of SUWA corporate sponsors? I don’t want to give them another dime.

There is a list on their site.

Business Members

SUWA’s Business Membership Program is a great way for your company or small business to support the protection of Utah’s redrock country. If you own a business and care deeply […]

suwa.org

 

[meatblanket]

Patagonia is a big SUWA supporter.

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Try Guidestar.org ... you'll need to register

or ... https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/942936961

???

 

[MountainD]

There is a list on their site.

Business Members

SUWA’s Business Membership Program is a great way for your company or small business to support the protection of Utah’s redrock country. If you own a business and care deeply […]

suwa.org

Ton of photographers. And Misc. Nothing note worthy or unexpected there.