Possible Moab trail closings.

[evilfij]

A quarter of the United States is government land. There is no “shortage” it’s just that the government says you can’t do XYZ there and does not open more land, it does the opposite.

To the extent there are issues around too much demand, that should be controlled with market based pricing for admission.

This environmental thing is complete hogwash. People driving though Moab even littering is not causing material environmental damage.

 

[erover82]

A quarter of the United States is government land. There is no “shortage” it’s just that the government says you can’t do XYZ there and does not open more land, it does the opposite.

To the extent there are issues around too much demand, that should be controlled with market based pricing for admission.

This environmental thing is complete hogwash. People driving though Moab even littering is not causing material environmental damage.

Maybe I should have said "usable natural places" or "recreational natural places". Even around here, a relatively low-use area, many forest roads are being trashed for various reasons. Honestly, the only effective solution I see is to lock all these places off and require an endorsement that certifies one as knowing better than to trash natural places. Get caught doing it and lose the endorsement for 10 years. Otherwise, dirtbags and (around here) drug cartels roll in unabated.

 

[chris snell]

I’m sure the area gets totally trashed every year with big events. With the rise in popularity in “overlanding” Im sure the problem has only gotten worse. I hate to see trails close, but I think in general I support it.

That's not what's happening, really. The local 4WD groups are very diligent about trail maintenance, clean-ups, promoting staying on the route, etc. In the last 10 years, Moab has lurched very hard to the left and local government officials are trying to kill the OHV industry through OHV bans, noise ordinances, and trail closures. They are supported by SUWA, who is supported by big outdoor industry businesses like Patagonia. If these folks get their way, they will close all the trails and it won't stop at Moab. They'll move on to the rest of Southern Utah. Canyonlands will be next, along with Glen Canyon, Bears Ears, etc. This is a progressive movement. It doesn't stop and it only goes in one direction. Once they add rules to the signs, they don't take them off. If you care about off-road driving in Southern Utah, speak up against this while you still can.

 

[chris snell]

I was wrong. Southern Utah isn't "next", it's "already started". SUWA sued the BLM to get them to revisit Travel Management Plans (TMPs) for 12 Travel Management Areas (TMAs) across Southern Utah. In short, this same process that is happening in Moab is happening across Utah.

MOAB Ongoing Travel Management Plan Update | Trails Preservation Alliance

www.coloradotpa.org

SUWA Wins in Court Case Challenging ORV Limitations at Factory Butte - Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance

action.suwa.org

SUWA Wins Lawsuit Over Bridge Project

On July 29th, SUWA achieved an important legal win in our fight against the state of Utah and many of its counties’ long-running attempt to gain control over thousands of […]

suwa.org

 

[evilfij]

Maybe I should have said "usable natural places" or "recreational natural places". Even around here, a relatively low-use area, many forest roads are being trashed for various reasons. Honestly, the only effective solution I see is to lock all these places off and require an endorsement that certifies one as knowing better than to trash natural places. Get caught doing it and lose the endorsement for 10 years. Otherwise, dirtbags and (around here) drug cartels roll in unabated.

I clicked on your profile to see where you lived and it said “Darien Gap” which made reading this about drug cartels make sense.

Drug cartels and dirt bags don’t care about certifications so it won’t stop them. But an admission fee (with those paying around to report those not) would seem to make sense. Of course, the government just would prefer people not have access at all. So they do that and then the only people who go are the criminals.

 

[BenLittle]

I think it’s an impossible situation to solve. As a lifetime Utah resident, I have spent quite a bit of time in and around Moab. When I was a teenager, I would spend weeks at a time kicking around Moab; camping, biking, etc.. As an adult, I try to spent as little time as possible in Moab and generally grab supplies and GTFO. While it’s always had visitors to the national parks, the last 15-20 years it’s gotten particularly out of control since Scott Brady made oVeRlAnDiNg so kool. As hard as the local 4wheel clubs try, the reality is the 48-72 hour visitors don’t really give a fuck about the land and what impact they have. Moab is riddled with side-by-side OHV rentals. I hate these things and they are a major component of the problem.

I think there are other options rather than full closures. As others have suggested; permits could be a fair alternative. Just because this is a progressive push, doesn’t mean the damage isn’t happening or that a solution doesn’t need to be put in place.

 

[erover82]

I clicked on your profile to see where you lived and it said “Darien Gap” which made reading this about drug cartels make sense.

Drug cartels and dirt bags don’t care about certifications so it won’t stop them. But an admission fee (with those paying around to report those not) would seem to make sense. Of course, the government just would prefer people not have access at all. So they do that and then the only people who go are the criminals.

At this point it may be safer to take a stroll through the Darien than the mountains here in southern OR. Foreign drug cartels have setup grow and trafficking operations anywhere and everywhere. It's completely out of control. It's a different topic though.

I agree that certifications wont stop people of weak scruples. However, what I'm advocating for is gating off all public land but with a system of privileged access. What's happening in Utah (and many other places), is the gating off of areas for the exclusivity of hikers, where what I'd like to see is the gating off of areas for the exclusivity of all respectful people to enjoy.

Anyway, I'd like to take my sons back to these areas in Utah some day, preferably after the Insta overlanding fad passes, so I'll be expressing support for alternative A and D.

 

[rover4x4]

SXS and ATVs are a blight on the landscape, I expect these things are huge contributor to the proposed closures on BLM/National Forest land in Utah. The majority of folks in the 4x4 crowd don't seem to value the land and are under the mindset its there for them use however they see fit. I go offroading once a year and I am counting the days until the Uwharrie National Forest ORV area gets closed.. Responsible users are the minority... Internet, GPS, smartphones, extremely capable off the shelf 4x4's have made the back country much more accessible to assholes. I remember loosing Tellico in the late 2000's, gates erected to close many miles of 4x4 trails in the Nantahala National Forest. It was a good run while it lasted, I never expected to loose these areas. There was always a surplus of beer swilling clapped out redneck 4x4s trashing the place, treehuggers are pretty well organized, much more so than the aforementioned...

Looks like Chouinard gave all his money to fund the battle against us...

 

[MountainD]

Those that know me know that I am an nature enthusiast a gun toting, diesel driving lover of the outdoors that donates for land and animal conservation to protect it to keep it open for all users, OHV, mountain bikes, hikers, climbers... All of us. I also see the lack of land now available to off road/green lane in England where I frequently am as well as in western Europe. So if you think without conservation we can always coexist, you haven't taken into account the growing population, pollution and all it's fallout. Shit needs to happen, and I am glad it is open for comment as I have seen many conservation bills sneak in and kill areas. But we do need to maintain these areas in order to keep the majority open. Easter Jeep Safari is a friggin zoo and if you have gone out for it, you've seen the adrenaline fed youths screwing it up not only in town doing burnouts on main street, but doing even more stupid stuff off road. Including changing your oil by letting it drain into the sand and just driving too fast to be safe in areas that are coexisting with bikers and hikers. Motorcyclists and ATV folks in particular are asswipes doing very unsafe things including passing where they should not. And it isn't about Moab leaning left or right---a good example is the Fracking industry that get's a gov't permit to drill on land once open to the public and they close it from their lease. This happens quite a bit and has nothing to do with Right/Left/Middle.

But the status quo ain't working. It is good that this discussion exists. It is good that we get involved more than just on a forum bitching about this or that. Working towards keeping some areas open for OHV's is greatly important in my life--probably more than most of your lives as I have lost my diaphragm so motorized travel is what I have. But I will also say that being able to enjoy some areas on foot without a motorcycle or OHV crusing by is also important--keep that in mind.

And fucking great for Yvon Chouinard and his family giving away Patagonia and billions of dollars for conservation. The wild areas he has already protected down in Patagonia are friggin outstanding, beautiful areas and as a previous rock and ice climber, I applaud that . What you may not have considered is the second oil/gas/logging moves into those areas, you know what? They are 100% closed to all. I have seen it happen all over Utah, CA, CO, S. America, Europe, AK... So yeah, good on him and doing what he feels is right. Even unlikely places like PA, when Marcellus Shale Gas started their fracking, they closes loads of long time off road trails. I bring these up because it isn't about the "Left" or the "Right". Both take shit away so don't politicize it. Let's just constructively work to keep areas open, educate people to do the right thing, and learn to coexist better. When you see a dumb ass, try and have a constructive conversation with them in lieu of confrontation. Doesn't always work, but sometimes it helps.

 

[jymmiejamz]

A random observation/thought, but do you guys think that the way we view side by side/atvs is how mountain bikers and hikers view us?

 

[BenLittle]

A random observation/thought, but do you guys think that the way we view side by side/atvs is how mountain bikers and hikers view us?

Can confirm. However, mountain bikers and hikers/ runners are at odds too. Edit add in horses there too… lots of drama.

 

[jymmiejamz]

Everyone hates everyone haha.

 

[javelinadave]

Hikers are trying to ban e-bikes from the local mountain preserve.
Hikers leave behind mountains of dog poo or worse, dozens of bags filled with poo that don’t break down So they are talking about banning dogs.
Horse owners hate the mountain bikes because they can scare the horses.
In the end the city will just close it all down because people suck.

 

[blueboy]

Even unlikely places like PA, when Marcellus Shale Gas started their fracking, they closes loads of long time off road trails.

Yes, I grew up in W. PA. (now retired here) and not sum ALL the trails we ran in the 60s Jeeps, etc. are now closed. There are a few that open up for snow mobiles in the Winter which is another curse.
In France we hooked up with Club des Aigles in Val-d'Isère to run some trails in the Alps. France is so strict that if you are not with a certified Club your vehicle will be confiscated!
Just an opinion yet as EVs are pushed there will be more and more closures to gas powered vehicles.

 

[blueboy]

While it’s always had visitors to the national parks, the last 15-20 years it’s gotten particularly out of control

Ah yes NPS. When tent camping in Yellowstone circa early 70s with a GSP the dog food bag and both water/feed bowls were stolen from my camp site while out. That was the turning point for me.

 

[jymmiejamz]

Yes, I grew up in W. PA. (now retired here) and not sum ALL the trails we ran in the 60s Jeeps, etc. are now closed. There are a few that open up for snow mobiles in the Winter which is another curse.
In France we hooked up with Club des Aigles in Val-d'Isère to run some trails in the Alps. France is so strict that if you are not with a certified Club your vehicle will be confiscated!
Just an opinion yet as EVs are pushed there will be more and more closures to gas powered vehicles.

The irony of that is EVs will probably damage the trails more just due to their immense weight

 

[modernbeat]

The answer that only pisses off all people half way is to implement a permit system 100%. Every area, every person. The permit is good for one style of conveyance. ATV with no plates, cars/trucks with a license plate, motorcycles/powered bicycles, horse, unpowered bicycle, feet, and additional animal. Charge based on a combination of market and cost of damage (there's got to be a better term for that) with a few available for free or low cost on a lottery system to appease the egalitarians.

 

[blueboy]

cost of damage (there's got to be a better term for that)

Maintenance of infrastructure.

No doubt a solution is needed yet you have to keep in mind it is public land.

 

[Z.G]

Maintenance of infrastructure.

No doubt a solution is needed yet you have to keep in mind it is public land.

It is definitely public land, however I think most people agree that the public in general, sucks.

I'm 100% behind requiring permits for $$ that would both dissuade people from trashing the place, as well as put money towards hiring people to maintain the area without increasing taxes.

This works quite well in places like MV which requires a pretty hefty permit to drive on the beaches, which keeps more people off them, and them a lot cleaner.

 

[blueboy]

This works quite well in places like MV which requires a pretty hefty permit to drive on the beaches, which keeps more people off them, and them a lot cleaner.

Yes. And today most people disrespect most anything which is the real problem.
There is an Over-Sand Vehicle (OSV) zone at Assateague Island National Seashore as well. It is managed by the National Park Service to accommodate OSV folks. The permit fee ranges from $110 to $200, depending upon the type of access desired.
Yet the area is relatively small and easily monitored.
As mentioned earlier France’s concept is to permit Clubs and you have to be a member to attend their approved outings. Takes away individualism yet keeps the Alp trails very pristine.