Broke Down! Any ideas?

[Classic4X4]

Hello all,

200tdi here

i have yet to post an update on the transmission swap but pics and updates coming soon - long story short - Success!

But -

Of course, tonight, on my way home from an event, I heard a rattling (I thought was the Speedo cable but then noticed it corresponded with RPMS) - oil light came on (level fine) and then lost all power right after. First break down in 8 years

Please see attached video trying to turn over

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XLvye7S7Pu0VONljmvGIKbafYH9Q99D7/view?usp=sharing

For now, I got a tow home and will be getting into it in the morning.

Lift pump? Timing belt? was doing ~15mph

Would appreciate any advice anyone may have to offer.

Thanks everyone

 

[LazyRabbit]

Doesn't sound like lift pump.

Sounds like timing belt possibly.

 

[javelinadave]

Tough to tell from the video but I’m leaning towards the timing belt too.

 

[4RF RDS]

Agreed quite possibly belt….

 

[MountainD]

Yeah. Cant hear compression building at all, just engine spinning. So either belt or camshaft pulley (either off or nose broke) perhaps. Either way, front cover comes off. If your injectors are firing, probably cam, if not probably belt.

whatever comes to be, please let us know!

 

[Classic4X4]

Thanks for the input Gents.

Bummer - I have a new belt in the tuffy box and was about to put it in for peace of mind. Just couldn’t get that damn crank bolt off.

I pulled the rocker cover and everything looks to be in order. Won’t really know until I pull the rods.

In the mean time I’m patiently awaiting a battery powered impact gun as I’ve tried everything on the planet aside from that to remove the crank bolt.

If I could’ve gotten it off last week I wouldn’t be in this mess. Considering buying a lottery ticket as I just took the Defender 500 miles round trip out to the cape last week.

 

[michael67]

Out of curiosity, did you try a crank holding tool like this: https://www.difflock.com/engine-anti-rotation-tool

I've tried with a 200 PSI impact gun without success. With the crank holding tool, I use a breaker bar and a 5' piece of iron pipe - works every time, never busted a socket or breaker bar.

 

[expanse]

They can be on wicked tight. most do zip off with a few uga-uga's off the impact.

Crank holding tool w/ 44" 3/4 drive breaker bar + extension and my fatness hanging off the end. does the trick.

 

[Classic4X4]

Well, front cover is off - I bought a heavy duty breaker bar, propped it on the frame and flicked the starter.

When I removed the front cover the camshaft timing pulley fell out - Belt is intact but was clearly rubbing as there’s quite a bit of material in the bottom of the cover.

I guess the camshaft pulley/gear sheared off - how does this even happen?

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

It's the other pulley / gear, but ... https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/110281-200tdi-crank-shaft-timing-gear-poor-quality/

 

[Classic4X4]

I removed what was left inside the gear - the threads on the end of the bolt are worn - I think it loosened/backed off a bit (would explain the slight rattle I heard before this happened) and then camshaft end sheared.

 

[erover82]

Looks like a result of a manufacturing defect and metal fatigue. Hopefully just a top end rebuild and it'll be good to go.

 

[jymmiejamz]

Is that not the end of the cam that broke off?

 

[Classic4X4]

Yes, end of the cam snapped off. I was only able to find a single post in another thread from someone who had the exact same issue.

Have been researching all day - seems a top end rebuild is in order as erover stated. I believe timing chest, fuel pump and cylinder head need to be removed, camshaft replaced, rods almost certainly, and rollers/followers assessed for damage.

 

[jymmiejamz]

I’ve seen this before. If you replace the cam you should be replacing the cam bearings. They are line bored to size, so to do it right you’re looking at a full bottom end rebuild.

 

[erover82]

Very few machine shops have the tooling to line bore the cam bearings. If they’re undamaged and clearance is still tight I’d leave them alone. Another option is replacing them with a set from Turner which are pre-sized and allows you to avoid a complete rebuild. Depends how thorough you want to be.

 

[erover82]

Any chance this was an aftermarket cam?

 

[jymmiejamz]

Very few machine shops have the tooling to line bore the cam bearings. If they’re undamaged and clearance is still tight I’d leave them alone. Another option is replacing them with a set from Turner which are pre-sized and allows you to avoid a complete rebuild. Depends how thorough you want to be.

Turner still recommends line boring the pre sized bearings

 

[MountainD]

When I lost my cam gear, I thought I sheared the end too. I talked with Turner and they have seen it. what happened to me was the PO hadn’t properly torqued the cam gear bolt, and it backed out. We see the effects more often with the nose of the driveshaft pulley when it’s not properly torqued. It starts banging into key until a massive indent is put into the pulley or, eventually, it shears off end of driveshaft pulley.

so my guess is something similar happened—bolt backed out, cam gear was loose and backed out a bit and the additional strain and resulting (now loose) impact sheared the end. It’s a guess, but id say fairly likely from my research last year.

 

[Classic4X4]

When I lost my cam gear, I thought I sheared the end too. I talked with Turner and they have seen it. what happened to me was the PO hadn’t properly torqued the cam gear bolt, and it backed out. We see the effects more often with the nose of the driveshaft pulley when it’s not properly torqued. It starts banging into key until a massive indent is put into the pulley or, eventually, it shears off end of driveshaft pulley.

so my guess is something similar happened—bolt backed out, cam gear was loose and backed out a bit and the additional strain and resulting (now loose) impact sheared the end. It’s a guess, but id say fairly likely from my research last year.

I think you’re right - the PO was pretty meticulous and very experienced - everything torque marked and clean as a whistle. I don’t know how, but the bolt definitely backed out and caused this whole fiasco.

I removed the rocker assembly (looks to be damage free) and pulled the rods

Number 1,4,5 and 8 are bent - 1 and 8 ever so slightly, 4 and 5 rather obviously

I peeked down their channels at the bronze tappet slides and couldn’t see any damage - I guess I’ll be able to fully evaluate when it’s apart.

This stuff can get a bit confusing for me as it’s a 200tdi with a 300tdi head.

Mountain D - Did you replace your bearings? The engine was rebuilt 2016 and has only done ~15K I can't imagine they're worn and I wouldn't think this would have damaged them.

I'm thinking head comes off, timing chest and radiator out (for camshaft clearance)

If the rockers are free of any visible damage should I assume they’re ok? Just happy this was all at low speed.

Thanks guys