Is an AGM battery a flooded or sealed battery? I need to set up my solar controller and after doing an internet search I?m even more confused.
Any battery genius types out there?
- Thread starter javelinadave
- Start date
SARTech
Well-known member
Its my understanding that they are sealed.
Here is a link to some information. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm
Here is a link to some information. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm
The_Vermonster
Well-known member
Lead acid is flooded
AGM and Gel are sealed.
The battery should say in fine print that it is sealed or have a "do not open" warning.
AGM and Gel are sealed.
The battery should say in fine print that it is sealed or have a "do not open" warning.
Thanks. I'll set it up as a sealed unit.
With solar, you want to have sealed deep-cell. And I have been questioning my own use of deep-cells in my Rovers. They are nice to have for leaving lights and such on while camping, they don't run down nearly as quickly, and it does not hurt them to run them down. However, the alternators on our trucks are not "smart" so they don't charge deep-cell batteries properly for getting full life.
So I'm thinking of putting a charge controller in between my deep-cell and the alternator. That is, a crank battery as my primary, and a deep-cell as my aux power, but the aux battery will only be charged with controlled amperage. Any solar unit put in would charge the deep-cell, and it would probably have it's own controller in-line anyway.
So I'm thinking of putting a charge controller in between my deep-cell and the alternator. That is, a crank battery as my primary, and a deep-cell as my aux power, but the aux battery will only be charged with controlled amperage. Any solar unit put in would charge the deep-cell, and it would probably have it's own controller in-line anyway.
Landy_Andy
Well-known member
AGM is short for Absorbed Glass Matt, basically the acid is in the form of a gel that's soaked into glass fibre matting between the lead plates.
The_Vermonster
Well-known member
AGM and Gel are not the same. They use the same idea but very different processes. The plates in AGM are separated by a glass mat. Gel batteries separate the plates with a silica gel. Both prevent the leakage of acid, and both are sealed. AGM are the preferred battery though.
Landy_Andy
Well-known member
RDavisinVA
Technical Excellence Contributor
For our 110 Dormobile camper, we are using the 12V XS Power D5100 AGM deep cycle batteries connected in parallel.
The "car battery" and 2 or 3 of the D5100 60 AMP Hr batteries will fit into the stock battery box.
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_38724_XS-Power-D5100.html
We will use these extra deep cycle batteries to power auxiliary equipment that is not connected to the "car battery".
In that way you can discharge the D5100 batteries and still start up using the fully charged "car battery".
egauges has a 391-009 300A Amp Shunt that will work with a VDO black face amp gauge that matches the dash gauges.
http://www.egauges.com/300A-Amp-Shunt-VDO-Cockpit-International-Gauges-p/391-009.htm
http://www.egauges.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=190-963
knowing that a single V-Belt will top out in mechanical reliability at about 100 AMPS, you will need a serpentine belt or a notched belt to go above 100 AMPS.
Am currently looking at the options and physical limits of a notched belt drive for a 250 to 300 AMP alternator. The other option would be to drive 2 alternators with a notched belt that would be timed to cycle on and off during synced intervals, so the load is shared evenly.
When we used 2 different alternators last year (one 100 AMP and one 250 AMP), one took most of the load while the other acted as more of a backup due to the slight differences in how the regulators excited the different units.
This almost eliminated the benefit of the extra charging capacity because one unit worked almost all the time while the other only came on when the additional power was required.
If the shunt is placed between the auxiliary battery bank and everything else, then you can monitor the battery draw or charge by the AMP gauge.
In other words, you'll see the amperage going in and out of the auxiliary battery bank.
A voltmeter will give you a voltage reading, but won't show the amperage being pulled or added to the battery bank.
Switch on the inverter and plug in the George Foreman and/or microwave on windy days when propane is not an option.
The "car battery" and 2 or 3 of the D5100 60 AMP Hr batteries will fit into the stock battery box.
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_38724_XS-Power-D5100.html
We will use these extra deep cycle batteries to power auxiliary equipment that is not connected to the "car battery".
In that way you can discharge the D5100 batteries and still start up using the fully charged "car battery".
egauges has a 391-009 300A Amp Shunt that will work with a VDO black face amp gauge that matches the dash gauges.
http://www.egauges.com/300A-Amp-Shunt-VDO-Cockpit-International-Gauges-p/391-009.htm
http://www.egauges.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=190-963
knowing that a single V-Belt will top out in mechanical reliability at about 100 AMPS, you will need a serpentine belt or a notched belt to go above 100 AMPS.
Am currently looking at the options and physical limits of a notched belt drive for a 250 to 300 AMP alternator. The other option would be to drive 2 alternators with a notched belt that would be timed to cycle on and off during synced intervals, so the load is shared evenly.
When we used 2 different alternators last year (one 100 AMP and one 250 AMP), one took most of the load while the other acted as more of a backup due to the slight differences in how the regulators excited the different units.
This almost eliminated the benefit of the extra charging capacity because one unit worked almost all the time while the other only came on when the additional power was required.
If the shunt is placed between the auxiliary battery bank and everything else, then you can monitor the battery draw or charge by the AMP gauge.
In other words, you'll see the amperage going in and out of the auxiliary battery bank.
A voltmeter will give you a voltage reading, but won't show the amperage being pulled or added to the battery bank.
Switch on the inverter and plug in the George Foreman and/or microwave on windy days when propane is not an option.
Yep. I really think a manually isolated set of a car (starter) battery with deep cycle batteries for all six items is the best way to go. I would really like to see pics of your set up when you get a chance.
When I say manually isolated, I am referring to the fact that I went through hundreds of dollas of high end battery isolator units installed by professionals before I solved the problem of one battery draining the other by wiring my own set up of a solenoid between the two that was only activated by manual switching... Ended up costing only $45.
When I say manually isolated, I am referring to the fact that I went through hundreds of dollas of high end battery isolator units installed by professionals before I solved the problem of one battery draining the other by wiring my own set up of a solenoid between the two that was only activated by manual switching... Ended up costing only $45.
RDavisinVA
Technical Excellence Contributor
This is not 100% accurate because of the incorrect theories Edison put out as to which direction electrons flow, but in general concept, I think of electrons this way.
All electrons have this problem...
The problem with electrons is that they are not happy unless they can get to ground.
What this means is that the installing of multiple batteries can result in all sorts of unexpected movement of electrons as they search for the shortest path to a ground.
Batteries store electrons chemically, not inside an electric reservoir where they pile up until full.
We sort of trick electrons to go somewhere that they think will take them straight to ground.
When tricked the electrons have to come out of the battery through chemical reaction to do work along the way to ground like pass through the starter to spin your engine, wiper or fan motor, and so on.
The electrons are essentially working to get to ground where they are happy.
When you mix 2 different batteries of different voltage (say 14.8 volts to 14.5 volts) any slight variances in voltage levels will slowly cause the electrons of one battery to go into the second battery.
The chemical reaction inside one battery can deplete the second battery of its ability to chemically produce electrons when they are needed.
The way to avoid discharging is to have the different batteries completely isolated.
Something you were able to accomplish with your manual solenoid.
This covers the use of 2 different batteries which now become separated, but what about a bank of batteries like I plan to use.
I think each battery needs to be isolated either with diodes or relays.
Any battery bank connected in parallel is generally OK for a while when all the batteries are the same model, but even then discharging can happen when the overall voltage differs.
As the batteries get older, the voltage variance can widen and the likelihood of them discharging more probable.
This is something I need to research and test a little before setting up the final battery bank.
All electrons have this problem...
The problem with electrons is that they are not happy unless they can get to ground.
What this means is that the installing of multiple batteries can result in all sorts of unexpected movement of electrons as they search for the shortest path to a ground.
Batteries store electrons chemically, not inside an electric reservoir where they pile up until full.
We sort of trick electrons to go somewhere that they think will take them straight to ground.
When tricked the electrons have to come out of the battery through chemical reaction to do work along the way to ground like pass through the starter to spin your engine, wiper or fan motor, and so on.
The electrons are essentially working to get to ground where they are happy.
When you mix 2 different batteries of different voltage (say 14.8 volts to 14.5 volts) any slight variances in voltage levels will slowly cause the electrons of one battery to go into the second battery.
The chemical reaction inside one battery can deplete the second battery of its ability to chemically produce electrons when they are needed.
The way to avoid discharging is to have the different batteries completely isolated.
Something you were able to accomplish with your manual solenoid.
This covers the use of 2 different batteries which now become separated, but what about a bank of batteries like I plan to use.
I think each battery needs to be isolated either with diodes or relays.
Any battery bank connected in parallel is generally OK for a while when all the batteries are the same model, but even then discharging can happen when the overall voltage differs.
As the batteries get older, the voltage variance can widen and the likelihood of them discharging more probable.
This is something I need to research and test a little before setting up the final battery bank.
For what it's worth, a lot of the hype on batteries is completely overblown in my opinion. Spending three or four hundred dollars is absurd.
Commercial grade, sealed lead acid, high CCA batteries in the $120 price range will deliver rock solid performance for years if treated right and maintained.
All batteries fail... plan for replacement (this includes warranty term and conditions).
Also echo the prior comments on deep cycle. Absolutely not the right choice for a general purpose or starting/winching battery. For what most of us do - starting big old engines and/or running winches - CCA's are king.
Save the 105ah marine deep cycle for the trolling motor on your bass boat. The most recent battery I bought for 4wd use is a Group 31 commercial truck starting battery with 1100 CCA - sealed lead acid - 24 month warranty - $130 after core. Could not be happier.
Commercial grade, sealed lead acid, high CCA batteries in the $120 price range will deliver rock solid performance for years if treated right and maintained.
All batteries fail... plan for replacement (this includes warranty term and conditions).
Also echo the prior comments on deep cycle. Absolutely not the right choice for a general purpose or starting/winching battery. For what most of us do - starting big old engines and/or running winches - CCA's are king.
Save the 105ah marine deep cycle for the trolling motor on your bass boat. The most recent battery I bought for 4wd use is a Group 31 commercial truck starting battery with 1100 CCA - sealed lead acid - 24 month warranty - $130 after core. Could not be happier.
RDavisinVA
Technical Excellence Contributor
Good point.
Should have been more specific.
We use a lead acid "car battery" completely separated from the multiple AGM deep cycle batteries used to power auxiliary equipment, lights, and so on.
We even have a 120V hand winch.
Should have been more specific.
We use a lead acid "car battery" completely separated from the multiple AGM deep cycle batteries used to power auxiliary equipment, lights, and so on.
We even have a 120V hand winch.
My all-time favorite battery:
https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-31-PC2150S-Heavy-Commercial-Battery/dp/B002498NR2
https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-31-PC2150S-Heavy-Commercial-Battery/dp/B002498NR2
RDavisinVA
Technical Excellence Contributor
Great choice for everyone except Catalina Island residents.
LOL, so true. I read an article once that talked about that. Apparently, UPS has contracted with an a company that occasionally uses aircraft to deliver cargo and they do not accept batteries on their planes.
nas90tdi
Well-known member
I second that battery. I have wasted money on hundreds of batteries, and for the money Oddysey has beat them all. I had the 2150T battery on one of my Discos. It was going bad and I kept using it for almost 3 months. It wouldn't hold but about 11V and never once failed to crank the truck. Just slightly slow and never made a solenoid click one time. The amp loads that thing will handle are crazy compared to other batteries in that range.
It does, however, weigh a ton and is a bitch to lift up and over the front of a Disco on 35's.
It does, however, weigh a ton and is a bitch to lift up and over the front of a Disco on 35's.
LRNAD90
Well-known member
I'm not sure I exactly agree with this statement. I don't think it is a good idea to shop CCA and ignore RC or Reserve Capacity of the battery. Since most winch manufacturers recommend a 650 CCA or better battery, I would even argue that the RC is more important, as it speaks to the capacity, or how long it can run your winch or spin your starter.
To be clear, for the same RC rating, I would choose the battery with the higher CCA rating, but I would not choose, say, a 1100 CCA Battery with 100 min RC over an 800CCA battery with 190 min RC rating..
If you are not in to expedition travel, where you find yourself vehicle dependent in the middle of nowhere, a standard flooded battery is more than likely going to meet your needs just fine, as noted..
Something like this is a good choice IMHO, but AGM batteries do offer additional advantages in durability, vibration resistance, discharged damage resistance, and are truly sealed (flooded lead acids are not really sealed, they have to be upright or they will leak), plus the ability to orient them on their side if needed.
Measuring batteries in RC isnt really effective anyways, but you are right at the extreme having 1000CCA with lets say 30AH would not be much use. Luckily just based on physics in order to deliver a certain amount of CCA there is a realistic floor on AH. Case in point the battery I just bought (1000CCA not 1100, I mistyped) is still 75AH which is well more than enough.
SO given two real world choices -
A: 650CCA with 105ah
B: 1000CCA with 75ah
I maintain that option B is the better choice for the average 4x4 use case (including winching) although either will work "fine".
Option A is suited as a house or second isolated battery, but not primary.
SO given two real world choices -
A: 650CCA with 105ah
B: 1000CCA with 75ah
I maintain that option B is the better choice for the average 4x4 use case (including winching) although either will work "fine".
Option A is suited as a house or second isolated battery, but not primary.