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Old 04-16-2018, 12:49 AM   #31
RBBailey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Douglas View Post
I guess for some, perception is reality. I take what I read online with a grain of salt.

You asked a question, I responded.

The belt pulley that bolts to the three bolt round flange is designed with 3mm elongated holes for the express purpose of being able to fine tune the timing. Many think slamming the pin home is spot on "by the book/factory timing", this is not correct information. Once the belt is on and tight and the engine is buttoned up, we dont use the pin to adjust timing. At that point its either a dial indicator in the back of the pump or if you are experienced you can do it with wrenches and by ear and test drive.

The fly wheel lock and the ip pin are to hold things while the belt is changed, these are no guarantee that the person changing the belt will get it right. The camshaft pulley cannot be locked. Many trucks that I have changed belts on were off by a tooth, sometimes two on camshaft timing when we removed the front cover to start the job. No IP pump adjustments will compensate for a cam that is slightly off with the crank. The truck will run fine, it will just be a dog and get poor economy.

I'm reading back through various threads on white smoke that I've seen before, and the vagueness of what people are saying it means has new meaning. I hope you didn't think I was saying your statement was iffy; it was the other way around. Your statement, in the context of what we are talking about here, suddenly made me realize the possible connection with my white smoke and my apparently out of timing pump.

Are you saying that I will not be able to properly time this on my own? I've been prepping by watching the Land Rover Toolbox videos, reading the manual, and asking others who have claimed to do it once the belt and cam are in place and the flywheel is timed, then you should have the pump properly timed by using the pin. It sounds as if you are saying this only gets you so far, then one must use the gauge/dial to really get it right.

If this is the case, is it possible that a properly timed vehicle could come out of timing after 5000 miles due to, for instance, some particular wear on the IP? I say this because I trust the guy who timed the truck in the first place. Also, I have ignored it when others have mentioned that the belt itself could be a tooth off, because when I've turned around and mentioned that possibility to others, I've been told that the truck would run so bad I'd really know it.

So I'm pretty confident that you all have nailed it down for me, and I'll get the timing redone. I suppose this will either fix the issues I've noticed, or serve to highlight what is actually going on.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:51 AM   #32
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This stuff is dirt simple. There are tutorials everywhere.If the timing belt is done correctly and cam timing is correct then its simply a tuning issue. Most shops only replace the belt and do not bother with any tuning, many do not even test drive after a belt job.This has mothing to do with books or trust.

I mentioned the cam because on a couple of trucks brought to us to tune I found that to be the issue.There are three sprockets behind your timing cover. You can lock two while doing a timing belt job. Typically when someone has a belt off by a tooth the only place to do that is the cam.To further make the cam more difficult the arrow on the inner timing cover and the dot on the sprocket are down around 8 o clock if you are standing in front. Making just the angle you view it from possible to get it off. I use a paint pen and put a yellow dot on the sprocket tooth and the tip of the arrow and make dead certain they are aligned. Once the belt is on and tight you remove the lock pins and turn the engine over a half dozen or more times with a wrench and check everything again. This is the belt timing, important thing to get right is the cam since the other two lock.

The injection pump timing is a precision thing. Think of it as a watch. Many wind and run fine but loose a min a day. The watch maker needs to go inside and make a minute adjustment to perfect it. This is what is going on with the IP timing. The timing belts vary, its the nature of belt manufacturing. It is necessary to be able to make minute adjustments. This has nothing to do with "by the book" or "trusted mechanic". Your truck runs and drives and you have asked how to go in like the watch maker and perfect/tune it. No one pulls out a dial indicator when doing a timing belt to optimize pump timing. The difference between your IP and a swiss watch is you can tune it instead of taking it to a watch maker.

This is the nature of mechanical fuel injection. Electronic trucks like the Navistar diesel in Ford powerstrokes and the Isuzu "duramax" in the GM trucks, or even the Cummins 2.8 in a defender, are computer controlled and make adjustments via computer.

Jim "Pendy" Pendleton uses a phrase I like.
"Advice is only as good as the person applying it. Don't make me give you bad advice."

Tuning these engines really wakes most of them up. Many engines dubbed as tired or dogs are simply in need of tuning.

Once timed and tuned properly the truck should be perfect for 5yrs or 50k until the next belt change.

YMMV
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:29 AM   #33
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Quote:
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...If the timing belt is done correctly and cam timing is correct then its simply a tuning issue.
This is what I think is happening with my truck, which is why I was thinking this is a demonstration of what needs to be done. Right? But I'm assuming the fueling should be adjusted.... after this fine-tune timing is done?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKnK0kJ1N-o
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:54 PM   #34
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No. Timing first. The "best" timing will have the lowest smoke and EGTs. Get that first and then adjust fueling to a level that you are happy with.

Currently you have white smoke, which means the timing is retarded. Fix that first. The smoke should go away. Then increase fueling so that you can get over 1300 F on EGTs. Where you set it depends on how much smoke you are comfortable with and how much you will what the EGT gauge.

A boost gauge would be handy to ensure you are getting adequate boost.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:03 PM   #35
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Awe.... now the nuances of the internet are certainly screwing with our heads; because in my mind, that's exactly what I was saying, but obviously... LOL!

...I need more sleep.

Yes, you state it exactly as I'm thinking of it now.

Anyway, thanks for the help. I honestly feel like the theory and the practice of this suddenly came together in my mind this morning after re-reading some stuff.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:56 PM   #36
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Pretty straight forward to open up the front cover and check the timing, tensioners etc. good time to estimate the timing by the pin method and then do a dial gauge check after it is all buttoned up. I am going to report back after each sequential change to my factory set up as parts roll in.

I have a feeling your tc gearing may have you revving out as well. 1.4 case?
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:01 PM   #37
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So.... Interestingly enough, I moved it to TDC, and opened the cover and used a 9mm bit to measure. It seems to be just slightly retarded in the way it looks when peeping into the hole, which lines up with what you all are telling me from my description of the smoke, etc... If I were to guess I'd say it is 0.25mm retarded.

I figured, if I could center it, I would be at a good starting point, and it would be a slight advance on where it currently is. However, although the three bolts are loosened, I can't get the pump bolt to turn at all. I can simply lock those back down as is, but it seems odd -- I thought it would have some resistance, but that it would turn with pressure.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:13 PM   #38
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Centering it in the hole isn't really going to do jack. You have no idea how far Advance or how far retarded the truck actually is. If it's currently running you're obviously within the ballpark of the timing location.

Ignore the pin location and then time it with a gauge.

The pump is not going to move if you have the timing pin in place.

Without the timing pin in place and the 3 bolt removed, you should be able to fully rotate the pump 360? with minimal effort. It's no big deal if you fully rotate the pump. Since it's a rotary pump it's just rotating as if the engine was running. If you put it back to the location it was it will start right up
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:14 PM   #39
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With the bolts loose and no pin in place, the center bolt should move back and forth with a wrench easily to the limit of the slots. The pump pushes it lightly in one direction. Try a bit of advance at a time and see how it drives.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:27 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napalm00 View Post
Centering it in the hole isn't really going to do jack. You have no idea how far Advance or how far retarded the truck actually is. If it's currently running you're obviously within the ballpark of the timing location.

Ignore the pin location and then time it with a gauge.

The pump is not going to move if you have the timing pin in place.

Without the timing pin in place and the 3 bolt removed, you should be able to fully rotate the pump 360? with minimal effort. It's no big deal if you fully rotate the pump. Since it's a rotary pump it's just rotating as if the engine was running. If you put it back to the location it was it will start right up
Pin is not in place. And my idea was really just to make sure that the pin was showing in real life what we are talking about here. And I had in mind that I would bump it forward, tight against the pin, just to see if I notice any change in how it runs; knowing that I could put it back if I need to.

But now I am wondering why the pump won't rotate.
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