Punch list for winch stalling problem

rlynch356

Well-known member
For the winch a 2 pole cut off is fine (on positive) the truck needs a switch which breaks main power and ign (Bosch makes one, they have 4 spades on the bottom) the load needs to be separated so you need 2 switches, one each for truck and winch (both positive)

The winch switch needs to be rated for the max winch amp load. The truck one is rated for truck load (max alt output)

Mine right now (d90) feed to a main switch which cuts everything (no ign connection or winch switch) I need to separate them. But it’s one sweet switch to a power pole (bluesea) then out from There.
 
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jymmiejamz

Founding Member
Callsign: KN4JHI
Yep, aware, this is my day job. Actually build these things for people.
If the neg terminal of the battery is not connected to anything on the vehicle, there is no ground to short to.
Its not possible. In a DC system a ground is required for a short to be possible.
My negative terminal is switched, its the equivalent of having no battery in the vehicle. For this reason a ground disconnect is
my method.

Doug, the winch will ground through the chassis and block if you were to disconnect the battery with the engine running. With the engine running there are effectively two power sources, the battery and the alternator. The alternator would act as the power source and the casing (mounted to the block which is connected to the chassis via a ground strap) is the ground.

Not that this really matters as the ignition switch would act as a power side cut-off. Once the alternator stops spinning there is no power source.
 

jymmiejamz

Founding Member
Callsign: KN4JHI
The winch motor will short to ground internally via the casing which is connected to ground via the bumper... just saying

If the engine isn't running and the negative battery terminal is disconnected, there is no ground.

Try this... disconnect your negative battery terminal. Then put one lead of your voltage meter on the winch casing and the other lead to the battery negative post. You will see battery voltage.
 

MountainD

Technical Excellence Contributor
Personally, I wire the winch independently of the truck to the battery (through a disconnect). One solid ground, one solid hot, no interruptions. I am also not a fan of running high amp alternators through the starter(hot). It is a "short cut" but every time you introduce an electrical connection/splice, you have voltage drop, heat, and a potential of corrosion/fault (whether through the connector on the cable or the union). Checking the resistance of the system is not accurate--because under high amperage loads, you can have a poor connection of trying to transfer massive amperage where in a resistance test from a standard meter, you could technically have just one strand of wire making the connection and have ~0 resistance when in reality it is incapable of transferring full amperage.

As to disconnecting the alternator, no engine running, and running the winch--there would be nothing to kill the alternator as the full load goes through the battery. I have done this for over a decade when bumping stuff around the house (not recovering a truck) when I need short bursts. I do have a massive battery, too (Oddesey 2150). However you should never disconnect the battery to check the alternator while truck is running and there are many reasons for this including that the charging system actually outputs AC voltage (that is what the zeneer diodes and the rectifying circuit is for--to convert to "approximate" DC and that is why the battery, acting as the full DC buffer in the system, is important as well as providing a more concrete DC ground to the system.

I am going to concede that there two methods, both good, for hooking up disconnects but only because I am tired or arguing over it. They both work and depending on the many factors, both are completely applicable between switching ground or switching hot...(sort of). For me, I switch hot--and I do that intentionally and after much thought. My logic is simple--First, I don't like having a hot constantly run to the winch. If I switch the hot, the winch is not hot nor is the cable running to the winch. If I switch ground (and the truck is running or "hot"), then the cable is hot, the winch is hot, (even with the winch ground is disconnected) and if I bump the winch, it will ground the winch through the housing. THIS HAPPENS and I had my winch case glow red hot before I realized I had the ground disconnected and it could have destroyed the windings. If you are in an accident and your cable is hot or is worn, you can still create a direct short as your truck is still grounded (and it has to be in order to still be running). In the "switch the ground" scenario, that means you can NOT use the truck at all if the disconnect is disconnected. I have a two pole switch but this applies if you have a winch discconect AND a truck disconnect too. I use my winch 1% of the time---so it should have it's own disconnect.

Those that say "switch the ground" has to always switch off the entire truck all the time. Either EVERYTHING is disconnected or EVERYTHING is on. If they "attempted" an in-between solution where the truck is grounded but other things are disconnected, then I feel that they have not learned the lesson yet that there are multiple unseen paths to ground in a car (through stereo, alternator, starter... so many!) but they will eventually. It is not a good way to switch a winch. NOTE: I do switch grounds for a lot of my electronics-- but they are run through fuses and are not capable of pulling hundreds of amps...
 

Uncle Douglas

Well-known member
Callsign: delete
Wasnt trying to be argumenative, but totally know thats my personality type so sorry if I've fired anyone up. While I'm not an electrical engineer myself, I was raised by a nuclear engineer who designed/built power generation plants and have been immersed in this stuff (read intense tutelage) since I was old enough to converse with my father. Reading above its apparent who gets dc..

I dont have an in between solution where the potential pitfalls proposed above could happen. All gound is run through the disconnect. This means when you throw it everything dies, including any potential short, the computer controlled gems engine cannot run without ground, fuel pump gound is attached to the disconnect, all lights, even a shorting winch or starter, everything instantly.

Jimmy, you are absolutely right, with another setup what you say could happen, a tdi for instance could continue to run if the electromagnet fuel shut off stuck and the alternator could create a ground seeking short. A tdi engine will definitely continue to run if you switch/disconnect the positive cable however. It is arguable that a ground disconnect would also be superior in that scenario. What I built here isnt the answer for every rig but its perfect for this one. Wasnt stating that it was, was just explaining what I have.

Over the past 40 yrs of playing with land rovers I have had starter solenoids stick (engaged), winch motors short, fuel fires etc. This is the one way to stop most everything but a wire insulation or fuel related fire instantly.
 
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MountainD

Technical Excellence Contributor
Having graduated from UCLA in engineering studying both EE and ME, I feel pretty qualified on electrical systems, both DC and AC and having worked in the electrical industry for both AC and DC in lighting for 25 years has allowed me to stay on top of it--I fully get DC. Again, if you want your truck to operate while the winch is unpowered (using a disconnect), it is imperative that you put the cut off for the winch on the positive side. Period. End of story. If you want the entire truck and the winch both to shut off at the same time, then you can cut the negative side— no argument. If anyone doubts this, it is super easy to prove—put a light on your positive winch post and the other end on your chassis and see it it lights.

But I did forget to answer the OP question--and I meant to. If you have a logging oscilloscope or a logging meter, measure the voltage drop at the ECU when you power up the winch--you most likely will see a low spike, in the range of several milliseconds duration, which won't show up on an analog battery gauge, and be so low a voltage that could easily trigger the ECU to shut down. That is my guess. Unless you have a large battery reserve (such as the 2150 battery), you could easily drop to even lower than 8 volts. Without being at your truck, and seeing the meter, that would be my best armchair guess.

Causes would be too small a battery for the draw to buffer and that draw may not be just the draw from winch alone— it could be compounded by insufficient wire gauge, poor crimps and/or poor through connection continuity including if multiple connections are made through lugs at a post such as a starter or distribution block which should never be used with a winch. Solutions could include running winch positive/negatives straight through to battery(which you did but I’ve seen others not), making sure battery is up to the task, and using larger gauge wire. Knowing your expertise, my suspicion would be battery or something internal to the winch such as bad winding. Measuring the Amp spike and voltage drop would be great pieces of info for that. Continuity tests are constantly misleading for large amperage loads as previously stated.

Just trying to help.
 
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jymmiejamz

Founding Member
Callsign: KN4JHI
If you want the entire truck to shut off and the winch both at the same time, then you can cut the negative side. If anyone doubts this, it is super easy to prove--you PM me and I will have you do a simple test.

The point I was trying to make was that the truck won't shut off if you disconnect the battery negative if the engine is running.

Checking the resistance of the system is not accurate--because under high amperage loads, you can have a poor connection of trying to transfer massive amperage where in a resistance test from a standard meter, you could technically have just one strand of wire making the connection and have ~0 resistance when in reality it is incapable of transferring full amperage.

And this is why resistance checks are not a very good form of diagnosis. Voltage drop for the win!
 

jymmiejamz

Founding Member
Callsign: KN4JHI
Here is how Superwinch recommends wiring the winch. If I remember correctly they recommend a Hella switch for the job.
8222
 
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