New Defender Airborne

mitherial

Well-known member
Impressively, Road & Track got air-time with their press vehicle New Defender loaner:

Honestly, it reminds me more than anything of a nicer and updated version of the LR3 I drove for nine years. The exterior doesn’t do much for me, but I do like what I have seen of the interior.
 

pfshoen

Well-known member
Apparently, Road and Track thinks drifting and getting airborne is a staple of 4x4 activity. Holy smokes, I've been banging around in Land Rovers for over 40 years and never knew they should be driven like WRC cars. Boy, do I ever feel stoopid now! Note that R&T did say that if you want capability, buy a Jeep. I'm still waiting for them to get to the good part.
Saw a new "90" for the first time yesterday. Also read a British road test.
They say getting in/out of the back seats is a slow process that, considering the rear seat room, is hardly worth the effort. The 90 actually has a longer wheelbase than a RRC. And nothing like the slick set-up of early 2-doors that allows rear seat passengers to move the front seat forward and open the door from the inside. In this aspect, at least, the new 90 is a step back to before 1970.
The British road tester obediently repeated the company line that since the old one wasn't selling well anymore, they had no choice but to build what is for all intents and purposes, a restyled Disco 5. As if an updated Defender wasn't an option. Grenadier calls B.S. on that. The new lie is that current sales prove Rover made the right decision, since the Pretender is outselling other models. What they don't tell you is how much of Pretender sales are the result of cannibalizing the rest of their product line. The truth is that stamping anything with the moniker Land Rover Defender will guarantee a lot of sales, no matter what it is, and can hardly be considered some kind of accomplishment. There's nothing quite like taking credit for someone else's achievements. Grenadier's future success or lack thereof will prove them right or wrong. I can hardly wait.
Although it didn't look that bad to me in photos, seeing it in person is another thing. It def isn't as ugly as a Disco 5. I couldn't see inside because of tinted windows, but a friend of mine who got a ride in one said it reminded him of the interior of a Honda Element. The rear side glass is straight out of Masai's catalog, so is hard to fault, or give any props to Rover for that matter. It didn't have the pathetic design square like a new 110, so it has that going for it.
The faux checker plate on the hood was shiny, which struck me as weird. The paint lines form notches at the high point of the black wheel arches. Not sure where they are going with that. On each rear bumper corner, there are small indents, which apparently are styling touches. At first glance, they look like the start of footholds, like you see on the bumpers of some modern pickups that provide a step up even when the tailgate is down. In this case, they have no purpose other than to give the artistes working for McGovern a warm feeling.
Rover consider the rear of the Pretender to be a styling triumph, and reminiscent of the old trucks. Sadly, I don't share their enthusiasm.
All in all, the design looks contrived. Maybe it's because Rover tried to make it look like something it isn't, which isn't a good place to start when functional beauty is at the heart of a 70-year-old design tradition.
 

pfshoen

Well-known member
I've only had Land Rovers for 31 years, averaging one a year (some for 9; others for less; peaking at 4 at a time). My '22 110 is phenomenal and does everything I ask of it exceptionally well.

Guess I've grown tired of armchair reviews.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-pro...g?crop=1.00xw:0.935xh;0,0.0386xh&resize=980:*
I don't doubt the new Defender is just perfect for a lot of people. I have an LR3 and love it, but it's not a Defender. JLR is convinced they'll sell more and make more money building the entirely new one rather than an updated one. However, it's a bit of a stretch to relate it to the original. Happy to admit I've never driven or owned one, much less long enough to have properly tested it. No one has offered to loan one to me for that purpose and I'm not about to buy one to find out if my experience is any different than the pro road testers', which has been pretty consistent from publication to publication. I did have to get out of my armchair to give it a good lookover, however. A lot of the facts about the new Defender are obvious on its face and spec sheet. As far as getting airborne, I find it more satisfying on something designed for it, like a motorcycle or airplane.
 

vtlandrover

Well-known member
You're welcome to borrow mine for a weekend if you're ever up in Vermont.

I have to put this in context... for a daily driver and in comparison to the full range of Rovers I've owned - from as early as a 1957 Series I through a 2016 LR4 (noting that I daily drove a 1970 IIA 88" for almost 7 years) - I can say with confidence that it does the following better than any of its predecessors: (1) tows and tracks my 23' Sea Ray and 20' loaded car hauler, instilling confidence in traffic like my '16 Silverado; (2) more quickly heats when its -24 degrees and cools when its over 100; (3) accelerates faster; (4) can get closer to objects thanks to a variety of cameras; (5) has no annoying wires to contend with thanks to Apple Car Play and wireless charging; (6) is more visible to others in white-out conditions (front and rear LED fog lights); (7) has more interior storage (I keep an inflatable mattress, two Kermit chairs, a pair of middle-row Series-Defender window vents, and a Kurt wireless brake controller under just the rear load floor); (8) has adjustable suspension controls by the hitch, which makes winding down trailer jacks unnecessary; well, I could go on...

Aesthetically, it's certainly not my favorite. Then again, I haven't wholly approved of the looks of any Land Rover since 1997, when they started adding chrome bumpers to the Discovery 1.
 

pmatusov

Technical Excellence Contributor
Callsign: AK6PM
I just noticed yesterday that the new 110 has as much usable interior space behind the front seats as a short wheelbase Classic.
I knew it was a lot less than LR4 (for the same exterior footprint), but it is just dismal.
 

erover82

Well-known member
JLR is convinced they'll sell more and make more money building the entirely new one rather than an updated one.

If one reads into their bios, one realizes JLR is helmed by soft yuppies who haven't the slightest interest in anything the old Defender owners used them for. Their only interest in the Defender is that its currently fashionable as a retro status symbol. It shows in all the styling references they highlight that are actually just fake features. They carried none of the other positive or useful characteristics of the classic Defender forward. It's just an LR4 with updated tech, but is otherwise smaller, uglier, more expensive, more complicated, and lacking a V8 (at a realistic price point). When asked why they didn't produce the Grenadier after whimpering for years about how it couldn't be done, they essentially responded that it wouldn't fit in with the rest of their lifestyle oriented lineup.
 

vtlandrover

Well-known member
I just noticed yesterday that the new 110 has as much usable interior space behind the front seats as a short wheelbase Classic.
I knew it was a lot less than LR4 (for the same exterior footprint), but it is just dismal.


Not true.

With the seats upright, the length from the front seat back to tailgate is similar, but RRC seats do not fold perfectly flat like a new Defender - they tumble forward, losing a significant amount of usable space. You can't sleep straight even in a LWB RRC without removing the rear seat altogether or leaving the tailgate down and being exposed to the elements.

There's 7" more rear seat leg room in a new 110 over a SWB RRC.

There's more front and rear seat headroom than a RRC.

The height from floor to ceiling is greater in a new 110.

As for comparing to an LR4, the specs are very close (actually, the 110 is 1/2" wider between wheel wells), with the exception of the floor length with the seats folded... yes, the LR4 is longer, but 2" is not enough to call it dismal considering there's still almost 6' of flat surface.
 

pmatusov

Technical Excellence Contributor
Callsign: AK6PM
You can't sleep straight even in a LWB RRC without removing the rear seat altogether
Stand corrected. Make it
the new 110 has as much usable interior space behind the front seats as a short wheelbase Classic with rear seats removed.
The LWB Classic with rear seats removed definitely has more usable interior space.
I just looked up the numbers online.
The new 110 has 78.8 cubic feet of cargo space behind the front row of seats.
The LR4 has 90.3 cf.
The LWB RRC has 76 cf with rear seats present.
 

vtlandrover

Well-known member
I'm going to reiterate that there's a difference between stats read online versus real life... I don't think it's a fair comparison to say that a RRC has more usable interior space than a new 110. This is only true if you take the back seats out of either a SWB or LWB. Talk about removing the versatility of a vehicle entirely. I'd rather have my 110 Hi Cap back.

I measured a LWB just now to remind myself of my experience owning a 25th Anniversary... with the seats folded forward, there's only 60" of distance between the bottom of the seat base (which notably has a very sharp metal bracket at your scalp height) and the tailgate. That's 5'. I'm 6' and sleep comfortably in my '22 110 with the rear door closed. With my inflatable mattress, I actually have a couple of inches more between the top of my head and the front seats.

"Usable interior space" means usable. Take a look at these photos with the rear doors open. It's hard to argue that a flat surface without obstruction of a flipped forward seat means you can access coolers, recycling bins, and boxes without having to climb in from the back. Every Saturday when I go to the dump I'm reminded that I can now get my recycling out the side door - as opposed to my LWB 25th, when I'd have to climb onto the tailgate just to reach the bins.
 

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pmatusov

Technical Excellence Contributor
Callsign: AK6PM
I understand the desire to rationalize the new 110. The dashboard is probably the best ever made, and I don't doubt the technical capabilities of the 110's four-wheel-drive.
But, as far as practical load-carrying goes, I have seen a 110 side by side with a SWB Classic yesterday, loaded with stuff, and I've seen a new 110 side by side with the LR4 - so I can draw my own conclusions.

FWIW - it takes me 10 minutes to remove both rear seats, and I do it every time I take the LWB Classic on a trip.
78" with the back seat removed, and two aluminum boxes filling the floor space to make it flat with the cargo. By the way, this is another 3 cubic feet.

20220221_164100A.jpg
 

jymmiejamz

Founding Member
Callsign: KN4JHI
Has anyone compared the useable interior space of a Honda Element to a new D90? I think the Element is cooler, more reliable, and could be just as useable off road as a new Defender with some minor modifications.
 

vtlandrover

Well-known member
I guess I don't understand where this conversation has led us... yes, there's a lot of older vehicles with more interior space. FWIW, my daily drivers for the last two summers have been ultra-low-mile/original 1991 240 Volvo wagon and 1986 Vanagon Syncro. Both have have lots more interior volume than a RRC or new Defender. But living in salt-heavy Vermont renders those cars useless in winter. So, I opt for a disposable Newfender this time of year and park it in summer when I am able to "rationalize" older cars. Who's on first?
 

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Siia109

Well-known member
The core of the issue here is not the cubic feet available but more in line with PFshoen's statement -

"The truth is that stamping anything with the moniker Land Rover Defender will guarantee a lot of sales, no matter what it is, and can hardly be considered some kind of accomplishment."

I agree LRNA (cause I'm old school) needed to introduce a new model that would appeal to a market niche - but since the beginning of time (1947) LR never named a completely new updated model the same as the previous model. From the subtle Series II to the IIa then from Series III to Land Rover 90 - not a Series IV and not a IIIa. The Discovery went from I to II to LR2 - I can't afford a RR so I have lost track after Spice Girl started designing cars for LR...But I am pretty sure each of those have their own unique names.

I had people tell me I didn't have a real LR with my 95D90 because the dome light came on when the door opened. To say nothing of the coils vs leaf - this is fun ribbing with a nod to the nature of the marquee. Series LR's most closely share their own clear link and lineage to each other and even though they share the same given names they are identified through their surnames.

This has been lost with this new Defender. It is nothing like the rolling kitchen appliance I drive - and it doesn't have to be same especially when it goes by a different name - but it doesn't.

Look at it this way - Porsche 911 has established a vision in your minds eye when you say the name. It actually means something - its not a 4 door SUV and its not a fiberglass wrapped V8 - it is what it is over the years has a clear lineage of design and of purpose. When people say Ford Mustang my mind see the 1960's as well as the 1980's shit boxes of styling and performance and yet they are all Mustangs but the marquee has been diluted with the name mustang being slapped on anything just to make a buck.

The Defender had the same prestige in peoples minds eye given its prerequisites of earning that reputation on the shoulders of, and clear lineage with, the Series vehicles - Todays model is not a "Defender" - maybe a Defender II - and it actually may be a great car, let it make a name for itself - and THAT will be its accomplishment!
 

pfshoen

Well-known member
You're welcome to borrow mine for a weekend if you're ever up in Vermont.

I have to put this in context... for a daily driver and in comparison to the full range of Rovers I've owned - from as early as a 1957 Series I through a 2016 LR4 (noting that I daily drove a 1970 IIA 88" for almost 7 years) - I can say with confidence that it does the following better than any of its predecessors: (1) tows and tracks my 23' Sea Ray and 20' loaded car hauler, instilling confidence in traffic like my '16 Silverado; (2) more quickly heats when its -24 degrees and cools when its over 100; (3) accelerates faster; (4) can get closer to objects thanks to a variety of cameras; (5) has no annoying wires to contend with thanks to Apple Car Play and wireless charging; (6) is more visible to others in white-out conditions (front and rear LED fog lights); (7) has more interior storage (I keep an inflatable mattress, two Kermit chairs, a pair of middle-row Series-Defender window vents, and a Kurt wireless brake controller under just the rear load floor); (8) has adjustable suspension controls by the hitch, which makes winding down trailer jacks unnecessary; well, I could go on...

Aesthetically, it's certainly not my favorite. Then again, I haven't wholly approved of the looks of any Land Rover since 1997, when they started adding chrome bumpers to the Discovery 1.
Thanks for the invite. More than generous. Wouldn't feel comfortable taking your rig out without you, but def would be cool to take it for a ride together. I'll buy the gas and bring lunch.
I don't think anyone says the new gen Def is not a good/great vehicle or not good looking. Just taking it for what it is gives a lot to like. The rub comes in the back story. A lot of the flak has to do with JLR opting out of developing a Grenadier type truck, which many view as letting the Defender concept die without a fight. Then JLR tried to copyright/trademark the concept to legally prevent Ineos, or anyone, from trying to revive it. Some guff has to do with calling their new vehicle a Defender, with styling cues from the old truck, and what I consider pretentious JLR marketing faff.
Suspension controls by the hitch make it that much easier to hook up, pretty cool. I've not heard of that feature before on anything. Wireless brake controller is right on. The safe roof cargo carrying capacity is much greater. Your model is 17 years newer than my LR3. I'd be surprised if it doesn't perform better in most if not all ways, and is a substantial improvement overall.
Kudos to all in this chain. I especially appreciate the info on cargo capacity and bed length (as in sleeping on it). Get the facts, context and experience on the table and people can make informed decisions based on individual needs/priorities.
 

vtlandrover

Well-known member
Among a variety of civic engagements, I am our Town Moderator - which, in Vermont, means that once a year at Town Meeting, I get to stand in front of a couple of hundred (vocal) (passionate) citizens of our small town and facilitate conversations about budgeting and the direction the community is headed. I should say, "got" to stand in front... because our Town just voted away this two-hundred year tradition in favor of voting all issues by Australian Ballot. No longer will there be debate and discussion. No longer will there be both aligned and opposing viewpoints shared. No longer will there be a verifiable sharing of facts to base an informed decision.

I mention this because I feel like debate and discussion is going away all over the place to our collective detriment... but am glad we still get to enjoy it here on this site.
 

erover82

Well-known member
I don't think anyone says the new gen Def is not a good/great vehicle or not good looking.


:unsure:


The mechanical engineering is an incremental improvement over the LR3/4, but the design and styling includes way too many fake gimmicks and lost opportunities. It's a tolerable option for those into Discos, but anyone with any sense recognizes the Grenadier is the new Defender in truth. Anyways, I guess a Disco that can jump is "cool", kind of like theoretical top speeds and 0-60 times on sports cars that swell the owner's ego as they day dream on the drive to Costco.
 
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blueboy

Well-known member
I've found most of those to be nice-to-haves, but not absolutely necessary. The one that bugs me is Lane Keep Assist. It always seemed to work well when I'd test it on purpose, but not when I actually needed it. It would also occasionally get confused and try to steer off the road.
Yes, I like cruise control as well yet the rest seem superfluous. JLR has recognized that their quality issues are costing them sales and money for warranty work.
"We are reducing the complexity of our vehicles massively. The result will be that fewer things going wrong because the process will not be as complex,"
Seems like this criteria was missed when developing the latest product offering. Yet if the consumer idea is leasing and dumping the vehicle after 2-3 years when the warranty has expired then it really doesn’t matter.
 
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