Bring a Trailer Defender Auction Criticism

JimC

Super Moderator
Staff member
I’m pretty worn out with the state of Defender auctions at BaT but I don’t really want to become the “anti-Wagonboytd” troll who dogs out every auction. From rattle-can restorations to outright VIN-swaps there is much deserving of criticism, and that criticism needs a home.

I’ll start this off with a recent one that touches me in all the wrong places.


If this truck is a restoration then I’ll happily eat crow. To my eyes it’s a straight-up VIN swap - there’s nothing original about this thing except the plate riveted to the brake tower. The chassis VIN looks like it was stamped using a punch set from Harbor Freight. I would not have the balls to sell this truck without a lot more evidence if it’s legitimacy. If it was mine and I owned both trucks I could maybe make the argument that I restored the old with the new, and I certainly wouldn’t hand-stamp a VIN. But this stands to be purchased by someone who doesn’t know the story behind it, and that doesn’t sit well with me.

The good news is that they want too damn much for it.
 

RBBailey

NAS-ROW Addict
Callsign: KF7KFZ
The company selling it is an OK place. They have a style that is somewhat street oriented, but the few trucks I've seen are better than others. Have not looked closely though. They participate in local club activities.

But you are right about the overall state of Defender sales. I keep wondering about these expensive city trucks -- at what point will they start hitting the market again when the world is tired of this fad? And what will the sale price be? After all, they are Defenders, but I would guess most of them are Defenders that are not being driven much, and not being properly cared for.
 

javelinadave

Administrator
Staff member
I happily sold my truck for less than I could have got on BAT (to a friend and fellow NAS-ROW forum member) for this very reason. I didn't want to deal with the keyboard commandos, internet loudmouths and the know nothing know it alls shitting on my ad. Some people think the BAT comment section is the used vehicle Thunder Dome.

 

1of40

Well-known member
Honestly, it seems to me BaT isn’t any different than other venues. From the buy side Buyers must beware. From the sale side the pain can usually be avoided by providing detailed pics, detailed descriptions and be responsive. I admire how you can gain a sense of how your truck is being perceived in a short period of time. I want to try it someday.

JC, I agree, that seller has balls to post up what seems like a classic vin swap’d truck like that. With that said, I’d love to drive that thing.
 

Jeff B

Well-known member
If it was mine and I owned both trucks I could maybe make the argument that I restored the old with the new, and I certainly wouldn’t hand-stamp a VIN. But this stands to be purchased by someone who doesn’t know the story behind it, and that doesn’t sit well with me.

The good news is that they want too damn much for it.
Correct!
When you replace an old frame with new, you do NOT stamp your new frame with your old VIN.
Just leave it blank.

That's what ECR does, and they've been doing this for a while now.


.
 

Red90

Well-known member
I just laughed that someone bid $62k and the seller thinks that is not enough. That is insane. You can buy TD5 trucks all day long at half that price.
 

xplorutah

Well-known member
I have a friend that has sold both a TR6 and a 912 on BaT. He had good experiences. And the peanut gallery was of value in both, because they left the peanuts at home.

The Defender sales seem to be a different collector type. I comment occasionally, maybe a couple times a year. One was on a sale that the guys are local to me, and know nothing about Defenders. They are the classic polish the brown trout types. I don't go to that site much anymore, usually to see what oddball car, or Alfa's, Bronco's, or Land Cruisers are there. And yes, WTBoy is an annoyance. Is there a way you can mark certain posters with an "ignore" comments there, similar to how you can on forums?

On a positive note, next week is auction week in Scottsdale and for probably the tenth or eleventh year in a row we are heading down for a couple days of amazing auto overdose! I strongly recommend going down and seeing in this order: Gooding, Bonhams, RM Sotheby's and then the rest. Yes Barrett is one you have to go to, once, for the ridiculously overwhelming carnival atmosphere.
 

RBBailey

NAS-ROW Addict
Callsign: KF7KFZ
I'm tired of seeing painted pigs sell for Space Shuttle pricing. If the vehicle still has some kind of classic styling, hasn't been Kahn'd, and is competently built, $60k seems like what should be the normal high end range.

This truck doesn't look like a full resto. Looks like they cleaned up the inside, added the cage, engine, and fancy dash. Can't really tell in the pics, but it looks like it could be a solid truck. Who knows about the VIN. I've seen worse. But the plate under the hood looks too new.

Hey, I'd drive it. Looks better than my dog.
 

Napalm00

Technical Excellence Contributor
Correct!
When you replace an old frame with new, you do NOT stamp your new frame with your old VIN.
Just leave it blank.

That's what ECR does, and they've been doing this for a while now.


.


OR you get the replacement frame stamped with the existing vin during fabrication. Richards will do this for export only if you prove ownership and will dip the frame after stamping.

legally dubious...yes

simplifies states like NY, CA and CO that require re-titling when a frame is replaced...yes
 

Uncle Douglas

Well-known member
Callsign: delete
Correct!
When you replace an old frame with new, you do NOT stamp your new frame with your old VIN.
Just leave it blank.

That's what ECR does, and they've been doing this for a while now.


.
We have been buying replacement frames from Land Rover UK and having the factory stamp the vin on. They ask for considerable documentation before they will sell you one.

Totaly disagree with the statement above.

We sand blast and dip the new factory stamped chassis.

I see no value in having Marsland or Richards stamp a chassis- its an aftermarket chassis. I'd agree, leave an aftermarket chassis unstamped.
 

mgreenspan

Founding Member
We have been buying replacement frames from Land Rover UK and having the factory stamp the vin on. They ask for considerable documentation before they will sell you one.

Totaly disagree with the statement above.

We sand blast and dip the new factory stamped chassis.

I see no value in having Marsland or Richards stamp a chassis- its an aftermarket chassis. I'd agree, leave an aftermarket chassis unstamped.
Can I get this done in the UK then ship a vehicle back to the states legally? Or is this just done post import?

I’d love to buy a rust bucket one here, then swap it to a factory frame stamped by LR then drive it for a few years. Part of the reason I bought a LC95 was because the prices are absurd for a daily driver here for the amount of rust they have. The LC95 I found is about as mint as you can get a frame from 1998 in the UK with 170k miles on it. I figure I’d drive it for a few years then ship it back to America and make it into a weekend wheeler, but it’s not a wrench for fun on type of vehicle the way a late 90s Defender would be.
 

Uncle Douglas

Well-known member
Callsign: delete
No the law is being interpreted/enforced as original chassis required. The chassis we are buying are puma chassis as thats all Land Rover can supply us @ this point. I modify the tdci chassis before we have it galvanized.
 

Tomaco1

Well-known member
When you rebuild a truck in the states, new frame/doors/engines etc, what’s the best way to prove it’s not a straight up vin swap?
Lots and lots of build pics?
 

JimC

Super Moderator
Staff member
For a “complete restoration“ someone should at least tell a good story - even a “before“ picture of the truck would allow you to plausibly connect the product with the original.

in the case of this truck, I cannot find an original part, and the VIN tag is so clean I think there is a chance it’s a repro as well. This truck has a replacement wiring harness, all replacement body panels (round-corner steel doors, pressed-frame hood, etc), clearly a replacement chassis (it has no tabs on the rear crossmember and why re-stamp it otherwise), new-style dash, new seats, late-model axles (rover non-sals rear end, wide radius arms, “dash“ markings on the wheel studs). It goes on and on, I’m sure there are no 1985 parts.

I don’t want to just be pedantic, but I personally would want a wee bit of provenance for a still-insufficient-to-purchase-this-truck 62k. I know rover guys have a reputation for this constant picking apart of imported vehicles and armchair quarterbacking about any semi-suspect truck that comes up for sale, but if I were a seller in a market I known for questionable practices, i would go to some lengths to illustrate the legitimacy of something I was asking real money for.

Ironically, it’s stuff like this that helps keep NAS values up, many people don’t want any weird apologies. Though the NAS 110 that just sold for 75k a couple weeks ago doesn’t really reinforce my argument.
 

CDN38

Well-known member
B pillar has square knock outs for the power windows (never existed in '85). 1985 the body was bolted to the rear crossmember on steel tabs that sat on the outside of the rear sill as seen in the photo with the cream 1985 110 from Riverhouse Mini. The "1985" Defender in the BAT auction has the late model style rear crossmember that fastens inside the rear sill. Add the that all 5 doors are Puma, everything adds up to mid 2000's

Interesting, that Outland Motors currently offers an orange 1985 on their website which does show these differences exactly. It's much more period to 1985. And obviously been rebuilt and worked over https://www.outlandmotors.com/inventory/1985-land-rover-defender-110

But this white one on BAT isn't a 1985 truck. No way. The engine bay looks factory with the Td5, no evidence of anything else ever being there. Would be interesting to read the VIN that is stored in the ECU....

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CDN38

Well-known member
The purchaser of this truck should expect to wake up one morning and see Department of Homeland Security loading it onto the back of a flat deck, headed for the crusher....
 
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