A bit of a sway...

[SaintPanzer]

I have a UK Spec '98 Defender 90. I've only had it a few months now, so I'm stumbling my way along the learning curve.

I've noticed a bit of a sway, especially at highway speeds. It becomes noticeable at about 45 mph, and by 55 it's really obvious. At first, I thought it was simply short wheelbase, but then I started looking around. At first, I thought it might be the dreaded "death wobble" that I've heard so much about, but from my online research, it appears the death wobble is more of what I would call a shimmy in the steering wheel, whereas what I have is a distinct sway.

To describe the sway, it is noticeable two ways. The first is rather obvious: at about 45mph, a turn has a slight sway, but if it's an S turn, there is a distinct countersteer I need to put in to straighten things out. It can be disconcerting the first time, especially if there is a cross-wind. The second is more obvious at higher speeds: Take your foot of the gas and we're going one way, put your foot back on the gas, and you go the other. Especially disconcerting, say, when you are on an on-ramp, in the acceleration lane next to a semi, and you put the clutch in to shift gears. That change in power on the shift will creep you towards the truck if you're not looking out for it.

My first thought was suspension bushings. They should be "good", as it just passed a UK MOT in December, and I'm sure they would have checked for worn/cracked bushings, but I should probably change them anyway. More questions about that process in a future post. While I was researching bushings, I noticed a post at http://www.westcoastbritish.com/emu2.htm, that spoke to anti-sway bars being installed on NAS spec vehicles. I'm assuming they were not installed on ROW/UK vehicles, after crawling underneath, I certainly don't see them.

Could my swaying solution be as simple as adding the anti-sway bars? If so, I'm sure RN can set me up with the complete kit (bars, bushings, mounts, et al) but will it be obvious where they attach (i.e. bolt holes in rather obvious places vice drilling holes). Any other thoughts as to possible solutions?

Thanks!

 

[JimC]

I’ve been driving my NAS 90 for 15 years with no sway bars and it exhibits no traits like you describe. Y first thought is suspension bushings as well and I would not put much trust in a successful MoT. Take pictures of the four places that the radius arms and trailing arms connect to the chassis and we can tell you if anything is obviously amiss (or missing).

 

[rocky]

I read that and thought bushings as well...The MOT is very strict about every aspect of the car including suspension and steering joint wear...

 

[Red90]

The on throttle / off throttle steering is most likely the trailing arm bushings. Go over all the bushings and replace the ones that need to. Then check alignment. Your 90 probably needs a full detailed inspection by someone that knows Defenders. If the suspension is in bad shape, chances are there are many issues that need attention.

Anti sways bars are not needed. I do 80 in my 90 with soft suspension and no sway bars and it is stable.

 

[Red90]

....The MOT is very strict about every aspect of the car including suspension and steering joint wear...

LOL. Maybe it is supposed to be, but then there is reality. I have a friend that brought in a truck with a fresh MOT. You could stick your arms in the holes in the chassis.

 

[mgreenspan]

The look of the bushing versus its actual ability to provide any benefit are different. They aren’t driving your car for the MoT. If it looks good it’ll pass. Whereabouts are you? There are infinite Rover shops that could easily troubleshoot and resolve this if you don’t want to on your own. But check on bushings as recommended above.

I’ve seen some sketch stuff pass MoTs over here. Duct tape over chassis holes with waxoyl sprayed over it was my favorite.

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Another vote for bushes ... again. Heck, I took the anti-roll bars off the Disco1 & it drove fine.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond. Bushes were on my list, so...

Right now, I am very near Stuttgart, Germany. It would be easier to find a shop to work on a G-Wagen. In fact, there's one right down the street. I think I am on my own for this.

My two concerns with working the bushes are: 1, having never done this before, I don't even know if I can take them off with the load on the suspension (yes, I can fit underneath) or if it has to be done on stands, and B, I'm sure every bolt on the truck will fight with me and I'm liable to get stuck with a rounded off nut, not enough heat, and no sawzall. But I guess that's part of the adventure. There is a local sort of club that may help, but of course our favorite virus is slowing that down. At least I know where to get Esco jack stands, when needed. More questions to follow, on everything from tire sizes to electricikery. After spending time under the hood of a Jaguar, this is different, but not new.

 

[JimC]

There is a good British car shop in Degerloch, they’ve worked on my friends’ Rovers.

 

[SaintPanzer]

There is a good British car shop in Degerloch, they’ve worked on my friends’ Rovers.

Yes, I know the one. I am hoping to learn how to do this, but they are my back-up plan.

 

[JimC]

You have access to the auto craft shop on post? The easiest way to do the bushings is take out the springs and shocks so that you can lower the truck closer to the bump stops. That way you take the stress off the radius and trailing arm bushings so they are easier to remove. You can do this easily with the truck on a lift.

 

[UnfrozenCaveman]

Rear trailing arms? You can do it with the vehicle on the ground.

But...lock the transfer case, chock both front wheels so it can't roll, raise one rear wheel at a time, support the axle on an appropriate jackstand, remove one wheel.

Loosen the bolt that holds the trailing arm at the axle, remove the large nut at the forward end of the arm, now go back and remove the small bolt at the axle.

Remove the arm from the vehicle.

Now you can replace the bushing at the forward end as well as the pressed in bushing at the rear of the arm.

Replacement is the reverse ... same for the other side.

You've got all the bushes and a press or a Big Vise to do this job, right?

Oh, and that bastard of a rusted in bolt at the rear ... you might want to put some anti seize on the un-threaded bit so it isn't stuc in the bush next time. ... geographically dependent

 

[rover4x4]

the frame end suspension bushings are a breeze, just chock the wheels. You may need a pry bar for some leverage to replace the rear link or radius arm axle bolts. My RRC has fresh bushings and is a little sketchy, I came close to loosing it over a french fry many years ago.

 

[SaintPanzer]

You have access to the auto craft shop on post? The easiest way to do the bushings is take out the springs and shocks so that you can lower the truck closer to the bump stops. That way you take the stress off the radius and trailing arm bushings so they are easier to remove. You can do this easily with the truck on a lift.

FWIW, they've closed the auto craft shop. It may or may not open again, some time after they finish some construction two years from now. That option would have been ideal. But no such luck. That's why I'm forced to do it at home.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Rear trailing arms? You can do it with the vehicle on the ground.



You've got all the bushes and a press or a Big Vise to do this job, right?

Oh, and that bastard of a rusted in bolt at the rear ... you might want to put some anti seize on the un-threaded bit so it isn't stuc in the bush next time. ... geographically dependent

Was considering either buying a new vise, or just buying new arms with the bushes installed... or when they are out, taking them to a machine shop to have them pressed. Having a second set of arms would give me the chance to powder coat and replace with polyurethane later, when I can do every bushing front and rear.

And yes, I'm a big fan of anti-seize. I'm trying to get my senator to initiate a constitutional amendment directing death by hanging for all those who do not use anti-seize. The hang up seems to be whether hanging is enough, or if drawing and quartering should be included in the process.

 

[rlynch356]

just pull the arms and take them to a machine shop to have them do it - its pretty cheap. unless you have a press handy I wouldn't bother.
reassembly - I've found it easier to put in the center ball joint mostly tight (still loose) and then put the trailing arms bolts in once you put in the front bolts - then tighten everything up. I put the frame on jack stands (the ones I have can get pretty tall so you can center the axle as needed.

 

[Uncle Douglas]

Torque steer. Check nut on trailing arms where they come through frame ear bushings. Nut isnt tight or bushings are shot. The rear axle alignment to the front axle is changing.

 

[acheck]

no one has yet mentioned the a frame ball joint which will also exhibit these symptoms if it is badly worn.

 

[NPT90]

Probably worth paying a shop to put it on a lift and wobble all the joints. It’s hard to diagnose anything when the wheels are planted. Alternatively you can jack up the frame and let the suspension hang off the ground so you can put a hand on everything and see what’s moving. I replaced all my bushings and had a hard to diagnose issue that ended up being my upper panhard rod mounting point had worked loose. I also found my steering column yoke had worn bushings that gave a bit of wobble when tracking straight. It’s worth learning to do yourself but might be worth at least having someone save you the 3 hours but putting it up on a lift.

 

[SaintPanzer]

So here's where we are:

To make life easy, I ordered a pair of ESCO jack stands. I thought the ones with the axel top (as opposed to flat top) would be useful. What did they send? One flat and one axel. So I tried to do a replacement without raising it... and while waiting for a matching post.

I ordered poly bushings and a pair of heavy duty rear trailing arms from Gwyn Lewis. Really nice bars.

First one came out fairly easily. I notice the threads were a bit mashed, so yes, bushes on that side were bad. But, because I did not lift the vehicle up off the wheels, I got a little bit of axel rotation, and putting the one back in is a "little long". Need to rotate the axel about 5 degrees, which means I need to get the thing in the air. Not as happy about that, because the driveway isn't as level as I'd like (and I have mis-matched stands), but there it is. Maybe I can use the mis-match stands in my favor, and level it out in the air (i.e. have one stand about ¾ of an inch higher). I only have evenings to work until Friday, and the neighbors don't like working outside much after 7, so not sure if we'll get there.

I did check the other side, and that bush went from "I wonder if this is the problem?" to "why is there a chunk of rubber gone?" so I think we're definitely on the right track. The A Frame bushing is a little scary on jack stands, so that might go to Dagerloch. Up front, I can do the Panhard rod myself (no lift required), but I think I'll have Dagerloch do the fronts as well. I'm really impressed with the rear bars, but Gwyn Lewis doesn't make a front bar, so I'm on the lookout locally for a powdercoater. Not panicking yet, the bolts on one side weren't too difficult to remove... but I will keep you all updated.