200/300Tdi ADVANCED TUNING

4wdtravel

Well-known member
I have been assembling the below information for a long time in a word doc and keeping it in my drop box. It is still incomplete. I feel like despite the work-in-progress, NAS-ROW is the right place to host this. Maybe together we can work to fill in some of the holes or correct misinformation.

What's missing from below is actual information comparing the VW/Cummins parts side by side with the LR parts. To date there has been minimal interest by the LR community in actually getting into the workings of the injection pump - let's try to change that.

Much of this information is copy/pasted from various sources around the web and I make no claim to original content. I've only assembled it.

*****​



LAND ROVER 200/300Tdi ADVANCED TUNING​

The 2.5L Land Rover 200/300Tdi platform falls into an interesting space in the Bosch VE pump 4-cylinder diesel engine spectrum. On one end there are Volkswagen 1.9L TDIs chasing high RPM/high hp (5000+rpm, 300+hp). On the other are the Cummins 4BTs pushing huge torque figures at lower RPM (700+ ft lb at ~1800rpm). There is an immense amount of information on highly tuning each of the above to achieve these diametrically opposed goals.

The challenge of the 200/300Tdi is that it is most similar in displacement and operating rpm range to the VW TDI, yet more similar to the Cummins 4BT in operating conditions.

Conventional wisdom on tuning the 200/300Tdi is to gently tune the pump, boost upped from ~11psi to ~16psi, larger intercooler, and slightly advanced timing. Recently a fuel pin (“boost pin”) has become popular. Turbos are almost never upgraded (if they are, with a very small VNT).

The objective of this thread is to tear down this common knowledge of Tdi tuning built on 25 years of farmers tuning their engines for “a bit more pep” in England, and rebuild on the foundations of what can be learned from the ragged edge of Bosch VE tuning as put forth by drag racers and sled pullers alike.

By leveraging this knowledge, could it be possible to build a 200+hp/350+tq 200/300Tdi which operates well within the comfortable limits of reliability and drivability?

Please see Robert Bosch type VE Diesel injection pump by Martin Jägersand for a good overview of the Bosch VE pump.

More detailed meat and potatoes information about the Bosch VE Pumps:

Bosch VE Injection Pump Manual
Bosch VE pump rebuild walkthrough

COMPLETE PUMPS

The Bosch part number on the Bosch VEs pumps are fairly standard i.e. 0-460-4XX-XXX VE , what are important to note are the 6th and 7th digits of the Bosch Number. The 6th digit indicates the plunger size, 9 for 9mm, 0-10mm, 1-11mm, 2 for12mm. The 7th digit the is the application, 4 for 4cyl., 6 for 6cyl., etc.

Land Rover 200/300Tdi:
0460 414 069 (200) and 0 460 414 099 (300) (11mm plunger)

152hp/2700rpm Cummins 4BTAA:
0 460 424 XXX where XXX is: 143, 154, 158, 183, 185, 203, 208, 209, 226, 230, 231 (12mm plunger)

VW TDI's use a variety of plunger sizes, but usually 10mm in manual trans cars and 11mm in auto trans cars.

The biggest difference with the VW TDI VE pump is that the pump is electronically controlled by an ECU which relies on a number of conditional inputs to vary the fuel delivery and timing of the pump.

CAM PLATES

Specs (higher lift is more aggressive)
10mm pump cam plate – 3.1mm lift (VW)
11mm pump cam plate – 3.3mm lift (VW)

cam%20plate%20profile.jpg


DE143 plate (VW 11mm auto trans pump) is proven to work well in VW applications with 12mm head

Too large of a cam plate with a large head (12mm) will fail very quickly at high rpm. Aggressive cam plates are not designed for high rpm.

“A Cummins 4bt camplate has about 20% more lift than a standard 10mm TDI pump camplate.”

“Cam plate 1 466 110 658 looks promising. It comes on the 110kw (152 hp) 4BTAA motor used in a ford cargo. 152 hp is quite a bit of fuel for the 2700 rpm rating.”

3.5mm lift seems to be the ceiling for 5000rpm use with any reliability.
“Renault plate” is too aggressive for high RPM and breaks quickly in VW application.

“After the return springs get too strong, the plate breaks. After a billet plate is made, extreme wear happens. The high lift camplate profile of a cummins pump doesn't lend itself to rpm friendly longevity. You can have rpm, longevity, or power. Choose two.”

The correct cam plate must be used for the head size. The one that is supplied with most 4BT pumps is too mild - later pumps had a more aggressive profile similar to the VW TDI camplate. The VW 'LT' pump uses a camplate very much the same as the later 4BT - "that one definitely supplies all the fuel needed for the largest injectors up into the 'Race' series."

Solid cam roller kit 1-467-010-535 – more info?
High rpm plunger return springs kit 1-467-010-410 – more info?

FUEL PIN

Controls fuel delivery under boost (amount at given boost and rate as boost climbs)

Timber Trail 4x4 in the UK pioneered the “Tdi” specific “boost pin:

timber%20trail%20tdi%20boost%20pin.jpg


(stock Tdi left, Boost Pin right)

Side view of common Tdi Boost Pin:

tdi%20boost%20pin%202.jpg


M&H offers a variety, geared for the Cummins 6BT market:

mh%20fuel%20pins.jpg


# M2: Stock drivability with more top end fuel than stock. Would work great for towing and at high altitude. Works great with a manual transmission. Smoke is very controllable this makes it work well for day-to-day towing / driving. When the work is done just go play.

# M3: Medium fast pin allows slightly more mid range fuel than the M2 pin.

# M4: Fast fuel pin allows maximum fuel nearly right away.

# M5: Very fast fueling pin. Allows full fuel right away. We call it the play pin.

“You'll want the m2, or m1. Whatever is the "mildest" pin. They all give the same amount of power gain, the bigger ones simply smoke more.”


CONVERTING LR TDI PUMP TO VW “M-TDI” PUMP

Some VW guys build up 200/300Tdi pumps to convert to m-Tdi setup (to convert away from electronic inj pump). They report that the 200/300 pump is extremely conservatively set up and mod them further when swapping onto a 1.9L.

• Swapping to “softer” timing advance springs (so timing advances more quickly), higher rpm governor to fuel longer. What else? Seeing 200+hp from tweaked Tdi pump.

• (I believe the VW guys are revving 5000+rpm plus to see high hp numbers but what is low down tq and how much boost?)

• My Rover pump (which uses the same style of governor as the VW pump) will happily spin my TDI up to 5700 pulling strong now that it's shimmed. Prior to that you could hold the pedal to the floor and not get past 4500.

• Camplate swap: The LR camplate is fairly mild. The total max fuel per stroke is determined by (plunger radius^2) x pi x camplate lift. Increasing the camplate lift is one of the ways to increase potential max fuel. The LR pump has higher fueling potential than the 10mm eTDI pumps even with the mildish camplate, but a swap to a 4BTA camplate would give a significant increase to the max fuel potential. Bear in mind that any modification that increasing the max fuel potential will shorten the injection event for smaller quantities of fuel making the engine more clattery and so, replacing the camplate with a higher lift one may not be desirable unless that added max fuel potential will be utilized.

• Plunger swap: For the extreme build, a swap to a 12mm plunger/head assembly may be desired. 10mm plunger has an area of 78.5mm^2. 11mm plunger has an area of 95mm^2. 12mm plunger has an area of 113mm^2. As you can see there is a greater difference in fueling from a swap from 11mm to 12mm than there is from a swap from 10mm to 11mm. Bear in mind that in the same way that a higher lift camplate will shorten the injection event, so will a plunger diameter increase. You should also NOT increase the plunger size to 12mm without increasing the injector nozzles to be larger than stock.

• Stock 300Tdi boost pin is sold as an upgrade for VW AAZ engines

More info here on vwdiesel.net

INJECTORS

200Tdi used Bosch two stage injector (does 300 also?). Two stage injectors were also used on 1996-2003 VW Tdi engines.

two%20stage%20injector.jpg


200Tdi Set Pressures (MPa/bar/psi):
• Stage 1 min: 20.1/201/2915 max: 20.9/209/3031
• Stage 2 min: 28.1/281/4075 max 29.3/293/4250

200Tdi nozzles are Bosch # DSLA145P208
• 5 holes x .24mm / .226mm^2 total / 145* pattern
• This translates to 5x.0095”

300Tdi nozzles are Bosch # DSLA145P366
• 5 holes x .26mm / .265mm^2 total / 145* pattern
• This translates to 5x.0102”

2.8 Powerstroke nozzles are Bosch # DSLA140P1112
• 140* pattern

VW Tdi injectors (stock) range from .158mm (90hp application) to .216mm (150hp application) and are 150* pattern.

High performance VW injectors start at .226 and are considered for highly modified cars up to ~200hp.

See Bosio DLC764 nozzles These are for cars with moderate turbo upgrades. The Bosio PPDLC764 stage 2 has a 7 hole tip instead of 5 hole and DLC Race520 and Race520 stage2 support 200hp+ (1.9L VW Tdi application)

VW nozzles may not be ideal for the 200/300 due to the wider spray angle - this could potentially pray fuel outside of the bowl and cause a heavy smoke condition.

GOVERNOR

There are two different kinds of governor spring assy. “Low smoke” type pulls back fueling at low rpm to limit smoke. Open-cage/spring style delivers stronger low RPM fueling.

The Robert Bosch VE distributor/rotary injection pump is available with one of two mechanical governors to control the speed and response of the engine. These two types of governors and their functions are:

1. Variable-speed governor (SPRING TYPE) : controls all engine speed ranges from idle up to maximum rated rpm. With this governor, when the throttle lever is placed at any position, the governor will maintain this speed within the droop characteristics of the governor. The variable-speed governor and its operation are illustrated in Figures 19-77a and 19-77b with its actual location in relation to the other injection pump components being clearly shown in Figure 19-68.

2. Limiting-speed governor (LOW SMOKE TYPE) : sometimes known as an idle and maximum speed governor since it is designed to control only the low- and high-idle speeds (maximum rpm) of the engine. When the throttle lever is placed into any position between idle and maximum, there is no governor control. Any change to the engine speed must be determined by the driver/operator moving the throttle pedal. This governor is shown in Figure 19-77c.

200/300Tdi use the Limiting Speed Governor.

idle%20speed%20governor.jpg



LIFT PUMP

High pressure lift pump is beneficial. Extra fuel flow is bled off through return to tank and cools pump in process. At high rpm/high load the IP can potentially starve itself of fuel. The pump needs internal pressure to maintain/adjust timing (as well as lubrication and cooling).
The magic number appears to be in the 10-14psi range of lift pump pressure (maintained across the RPM/load range).

Walbro FRB-5 could be a good option:

• 12V / 45gph / 8-11psi / 5/16 hose barb fittings / self priming to 48” lift / built in replaceable filter to 70 micron or 420 micron (FRB-22 is marine/milspec version). Both are about $150

walbro%20FRB%205.jpg



TIMING

"Without melting the motor down at high fuel/boost levels, we need timing."

So they started adding timing until we got to about 35degrees (6BT), now on some trucks with big lift pumps and anymore then about 30 degrees timing we ran into "bursting" (It's so much timing that the fuel is sprayed into air that is not hot enough to light the fuel, and the engine shuts down until you lift off the throttle. You will see white smoke when it bursts.) but others were able to run 40 degrees without the bursting. The phenom was traced down to lift pump pressure. If the pressure supplied to the IP was to high, the motor would burst at a lower advance then if the pressure was lower, but too low and you starved the pump and it seized. The magic number appears to be in the 10-14psi range of lift pump pressure. It is now common to run 40 degrees by ~4000rpm.

Too much timing down low in the rpm range causes black smoke. Adding timing slows how fast EGT's build, and spools turbo's, it does this through increasing cylinder temperature / pressure.

Too much timing down low also reduces low end torque. Advanced timing at the high end increases high end power.

How do you adjust timing curve? Advance spring, shim the timing assembly, or electronically (VW electronic VE pump)

Set pump timing by plunger depth not degrees, using these tools here

The Internal Timing components are the piston with overall advance being set by it's overall length and the spring adjusted by shims to control the rate of advance and pressure from the vane pump as analog for engine RPM. Should be easy to set your advance to your rigs needs I did the math for how much material you need to remove from spring end of piston IIRC it's ~.016" per degree.

The mechanical VW TDI pump had almost twice the travel as well as a spring with very different tension. (compared to Dodge 6BT)

All pumps have the same total advance range but different spring/shim combos so different rates of advance?

M&H Dynamic Timing Advance for '88-'93 Dodge Cummins engines with a Bosch VE injection pump.

• This kit allows you to gain dynamic timing advance, without losing bottom end performance. Dynamic timing helps burn the fuel while your engine RPM’s increase.

timing%20advance%20shim.jpg


http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-3-D.html
 

4wdtravel

Well-known member
So a couple of theories could be made from the above.

It would SEEM that the ultimate 200/300 VE pump would include a 12mm (4BT) head, uprated cam plate (which one unknown), possibly the timing advance mechanism from a mechanical VW TDI, and run at about 15psi of pressure from an electric lift pump.

Or, it may be possible (desireable?) to rebuild a 200/300 pump with the electronic components from a VW TDI - including the other engine mounted sensors retrofitted - and then tune the whole thing on a standalone VW TDI ECU. There are a lot of well-versed TDI tuners out there that know how to make those things rip with the right software.

Separately, it might also be beneficial to swap governor mechanisms.
 

chris snell

Administrator
Callsign: NW5W
Staff member
What would you consider to be the best approach to maximize reliability and low-speed mileage?
 

chris snell

Administrator
Callsign: NW5W
Staff member
Leave it stock :)

I've heard from several sources that the IP is de-tuned in stock configuration and that you can actually get better mileage with no EGT elevation by tuning it up a little bit. I'm just not sure how to achieve that sweet spot. I most definitely want to avoid high EGT situations entirely.
 

4wdtravel

Well-known member
High EGT's are relative and subjective. In my opinion it's smart to have a pyrometer even with a stock tune because it can help diagnose any faults or tune issues that may occur over time.

~1300*F is about the safe limit, pre-turbo. You can get a stock Tdi to hit that if you drive wrong.
 

Uncle Douglas

Well-known member
Callsign: delete
I've heard from several sources that the IP is de-tuned in stock configuration and that you can actually get better mileage with no EGT elevation by tuning it up a little bit. I'm just not sure how to achieve that sweet spot. I most definitely want to avoid high EGT situations entirely.

Somewhat true. I think every turbo diesel should have a pyrometer. Especially before going down the tuning path. Advancing timing so that increased fueling doesn't have as great an effect on egt's still requires a way to gauge those temps. You can't manage what you cant measure. I see 1300 all the time on either the ford powerstroke or tdi rovers. It literally takes a second lift on the pedal to drop temp. Higher temps are more efficient.

I have definitely experienced better economy with advanced timing and more fueling, you tend to not have to drive the truck as hard. IE more torque means better acceleration and easier/earlier lower rpm shifts. I think its easier on the entire drive train.
 

nas90tdi

Well-known member
1200 has always been my let off point. Both for TDi's and my Powerstrokes. I remind myself that aluminum gets soft and expands in odd directions long before it melts.

I have seen the same as Doug. Better economy by finding that sweet spot on your tuning. It is no set thing. It tends to take a bit of playing with it to find the spot for your individual engine. The detuned truck tends to work harder due to lack of torque. HP does not seem to really the deciding factor with a diesel except at cruising speed. I have had a fair bit of experience with really low HP diesel engines with big torque ,and except for top end speed, they really didn't suffer from lack of power in daily driving.
 

RDavisinVA

Technical Excellence Contributor
A word to the wise concerning electric fuel pumps.
Diesel fuel systems have a sedimenter and a fuel filter.
Remove any internal or external fuel filter specific to any 12V fuel pump.
If it gets clogged, say during an algae infection, it will fuel starve the engine or leave you stranded and possibly ruin the IP from dry cranking.
We always travel with 1 or 2 spare fuel filter elements for the main spin-on fuel filter and with a 12V pump you can swap the filter and prime the system in a few minutes and be on your way, but if some extra filter has clogged the 12V fuel pump and stopped flow, you're looking at a tow.
Let the sedimenter and spin-on fuel filter do their jobs without adding a point of failure!
 

Viton

Well-known member
Same experience here - better power & mileage with lower EGT's after some mild tuning. Key word being mild.

So what exactly would you change to accomplish this? My engine was a LR factory re-power kit so I suppose it is at factory settings.

What mild changes can be down to improve torque & mpg. I'm also running the stock D1 Zf auto box (4HP22) and currently getting 22-23mpg. Stock '97 gearing & tire height.

I have EGT & boost gauges, max boost set from the factory is at 1 Bar.
 

Frank84

Member
I've only played around with the pump on mine and everything else is factory at this point. I ended up with the diaphragm turned clockwise 45 degrees, starwheel turned about 2/3 of a turn clockwise, and 1.25 turns clockwise on the off idle screw. EGT's came down about 50 degrees on average, mileage around town went up about 1-2 mpg's (no real highway difference), and power felt like it was up about 15-20%. I'd attribute the better MPG's and lower EGT's to the fact that I simply didn't have to get on the throttle so hard to get where I was going.

Having said all that, if you have the electronics with your auto version of the pump then you might not be able to adjust it the same or at all - I'm not familiar with that version.
 

AdamSanta85

Well-known member
12V fuel pump.

I have a question regarding 12V fuel pumps. Have you noticed the need to make any fueling changes related to the installation of a 12V pump? My thought is that by increasing fuel pressure in the line, it will increase fuel delivery to the cylinders. Same as using an adjustable regulator on a gas fuel injected vehicle. Same theory apply here? I know the 12V diesel pumps are low pressure but maybe? My truck is running fine with it but I don't have EGT gauge (yet).
 

Viton

Well-known member
The IP (injection pump) has virtually no internal pressure because the bleed off hose (return line) is open to the fuel tank. The injection phase pressure of the fuel being squirted into the injectors is due to the height of the lobbed cam inside and the pressure regulation spring valves located in the head end (the iron thing where the injection lines
[4 pipes] come out of the IP.
 

AdamSanta85

Well-known member
The IP (injection pump) has virtually no internal pressure because the bleed off hose (return line) is open to the fuel tank. The injection phase pressure of the fuel being squirted into the injectors is due to the height of the lobbed cam inside and the pressure regulation spring valves located in the head end (the iron thing where the injection lines
[4 pipes] come out of the IP.

But if the electric pump is supplying more fuel then the return line banjo (with its somewhat small orifice) can bleed and injectors can spray, pressure in the lines is going to build. With the addition of electric pump I am seeing leaking on my spill rail fittings. This is a FP with a 14psi max pressure. What is max lift pump pressure? 11psi? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atx-e8153
 

Viton

Well-known member
I ended up with the diaphragm turned clockwise 45 degrees, starwheel turned about 2/3 of a turn clockwise, and 1.25 turns clockwise on the off idle screw.

Is the "off idle screw" the one on the top of the diaphragm body (recessed)with the 13mm nut & the torx head screw?
 
Top